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Thread: AIWB survey on IDPA's website

  1. #31
    Member Les Pepperoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    My take is that the powers that be at IDPA are terrified of someone shooting themselves in the pee pee while reholstering or drawing.

    You can theoretically buy your first gun and holster on Friday night and come to the match Saturday morning and shoot as "Unclassified". At least if they are carrying strong side when they pull the trigger with the gun half in and half out of the holster they are more likely to have a superficial butt cheek or outer thigh crease wound than to shoot themselves in a less survivable area.
    Totally agree.

    That said, I recommended to IDPA to look at all the USPSA club matches/outlaw matches compare that with the seeming lack of issues in AIWB...

  2. #32
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Resurrecting Gabe's excellent post on this topic. The video at the end is a must-watch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    The devil is really in the details of this subject.
    ...
    I don't believe AIWB as a category can be nailed down to a specific safety level, because I think it depends on what can be subtle interactions between the gun, the holster, and the practitioner that are hard to consider without specific examples. It adds up differently for different people. I'm firmly convinced that running AIWB the way I do it is safer than any of the strong side IWB holsters I've ever used because it involves much less muzzle-body intersection.

    An aspect of this I find really interesting are the differing levels of anxiety different people express about whatever carry method with whatever pistol type. If I couldn't generally avert my muzzle from my body, as with a large-wedged Keeper, I might never have started carrying a Glock AIWB. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable enough to carry any gun in that position if I couldn't avert the muzzle. That's what I'm attached to myself. I'm not sure a manual safety, heavy trigger, or hammer would convince me otherwise. But people cobble together safety in AIWB though a combination of various different factors, and my way isn't the only way to get a safe AIWB carry method going.

    AIWB can be undertaken safely through various combinations of the factors that make it harder to fire the gun, harder to hit yourself with the bullet, and harder to hit yourself seriously with the bullet. Further, some of these factors require you do something, and others work passively and don't require you to do anything.

    Mitigating factors that require you do something:

    A. Trigger finger discipline
    B. Hard break before holstering
    C. Holster slowly and carefully
    D. Look the gun into the holster
    E. Bow the pelvis forward when holstering
    F. Thumb check a manual safety
    G. Thumb check a Gadget or hammer

    Mitigating factors that don't require you do something:

    H. Heavier/longer trigger pull
    I. Holster positioned between groin and leg
    J. Big pads on the holster that prevent the muzzle from aligning with your body through flesh compression
    K. Longer gun/holster will also make it harder for the muzzle to align with your body through flesh compression
    L. Minimize clothing and gear near the holster so foreign matter is less available to get into the trigger guard

    I lean hardest on A and J, but also on B, C, E, G, I, K, and L. I really prefer to have at least one factor from the second list, because those factors are not as subject to human error.

    Finally, here's a clear, visual demonstration of relative degrees of muzzle-body intersection involved in several of the most common circumstances of drawing and holstering in defensive handgun training. Take a look at the following video and see which of the three carry methods of AIWB (wedged), Strong Side IWB, and Strong Side OWB, result in the least muzzle body intersection, when the pistol is drawn while facing downrange and standing still, taking a step laterally left and right, moving dynamically left and right, and moving forward and backward. I counted zero for seven rule two violations from AIWB, four for seven entire leg violations from Strong Side IWB, and four for seven edge-of-leg violations from Strong Side OWB. It's my belief that AIWB done well, can be safer than either of the two common strong side methods, but that all three are within the common standard of care within the defensive handgun training industry/community. Bottom line is that it is difficult for the gun to shoot what the gun is not pointed at, and based on my experience, training, study, and experimentation, AIWB done very carefully can be undertaken even more safely than other much more common, popular, and also perfectly legitimate carry methods when it comes to minimizing the gun being pointed at the user during normal defensive handgun training and practice.

    As to a couple of technical points about the video - I used a SIRT and taped the trigger back so the laser was continuously discharging. Knowing that it was the SIRT, I was in SIRT mode, which includes holstering more quickly than I try to holster a real gun. I used a tape line on the floor to keep my starting foot position consistent at about shoulder width apart, and I turned the lights down so the laser would be more visible.

    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  3. #33

    Similar appendix safety videos



    Similar concept with showing muzzle angles.

    Also interesting that Seeklander on a Wilson Combat video endorsed AIWB….



    But it wasn’t okay in IDPA….
    Pointing at cardboard things....

  4. #34
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    That is also why they don't let you draw a gun from a holster in a vehicle in IDPA so you don't sweep yourself....yet there are ways to draw a gun (even from AIWB) in a vehicle and still not shoot yourself.
    Am I misunderstanding? I've shot from the driver's seat in IDPA matches. As far as allowing AIWB, I don't. However, if you shoot your pee pee, that will disrupt the stage and waste my time. The bit about the unclassified showing up and trying to be cool. Well, don't allow the unclassified to do that. I voted to allow it.

    I had an idiot almost put a 45 ACP in my foot when I was scoring keeping when he went to holster his gun. I'd would have preferred him to remove his pee pee.

  5. #35
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    Several of my partners did so. One of them I currently work with did it twice in a single gunfight while it was still going on. Even more interesting is he did an in-battery the first time and a tac-load the second.

    Another partner, a while retired now, did an in-battery and then picked up the mag (he dropped it on the trunk of a car).

    One of my friends (and Sgt) back in the day was in a gunfight with three bad guys when he and his trainee arrived to the scene of a home invasion robbery with the family tied up in the backyard... except that the call was not a robbery so they had no idea what they were walking into. After the trainee took frag to the face and couldn't see, and he was running low on ammunition... He started telling the trainee to give him her magazines. It was a multi-minute gunfight and I don't know if he actually ran out or was just getting close. Like I said... "almost" non existant... not totally.

    Competition needs rules... But if a "sport" is going to claim realism over other "sports"... the rules should reflect reality. Otherwise it's just another sport and that's OK.
    Thank you for those.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    My take is that the powers that be at IDPA are terrified of someone shooting themselves in the pee pee while reholstering or drawing.

    You can theoretically buy your first gun and holster on Friday night and come to the match Saturday morning and shoot as "Unclassified". At least if they are carrying strong side when they pull the trigger with the gun half in and half out of the holster they are more likely to have a superficial butt cheek or outer thigh crease wound than to shoot themselves in a less survivable area. I think THAT is what the issue has been , especially with this ridiculous "take the holster off " proposal. That is also why they don't let you draw a gun from a holster in a vehicle in IDPA so you don't sweep yourself....yet there are ways to draw a gun (even from AIWB) in a vehicle and still not shoot yourself.

    How many people carry AIWB and yet still manage to NOT shoot themselves every day while drawing and holstering? IDPA needs to step into the 21st century. Carry optic guns in AIWB is not just science fiction any more, it is squarely in the norm now.

    If they want to mitigate the risk of newbys and AIWB then make it Expert level and above only for AIWB use. That way the folks doing it have (theoretically) proven they have a fair grasp of safe gun handling. I voted for allowing it , against the taking off the holster, and OK on the mag pouch to the front.

    Funny enough I shoot strong side IWB with the gun at about 2 o'clock which is still IDPA legal so this doesn't really effect me one way or the other but I think IDPA really needs to approve AIWB. They just need to make sure no one gets in a hurry to holster after they load and make ready.
    To correct some disinformation in this post…
    1. There are no IDPA rules that prohibit drawing a gun from a holster in a vehicle in IDPA that I am aware of. Do a search for “vehicle” in the current IDPA rulebook if you’re not sure yourself. I’ve participated in, and SO’d several stages where this was done.

    2. IWB at 2:00 would be in violation of rule 8.5.J and K:
    “J. Must be positioned on the belt so that the center of the trigger pad is behind the centerline of the body.
    K. For IDPA purposes, the centerline of the body originates in the center of the armpit and goes straight down.”

    I agree that IDPA management is concerned about the liability of competitors negligently shooting themselves in the pelvic region. I’m a little concerned about the liability issue myself as an SO. I know plenty of people I trust to do it, but I don’t want any part of SO-ing a new shooter using AIWB.
    Don’t get me wrong- I get that AIWB is the “cutting edge” thing in concealed carry. I have a nice JMCK AIWB holster myself. I’m still working out the comfort issues, but I’m fine with holstering a hammer-fired gun with hammer down (or Gadget-equipped gun) in such a holster. If someone else wants to try a different type of handgun in that arrangement, fair play to them. But I don’t want any part off the liability associated with the consequences of ignorance, inattentiveness, or inexperience.

    If IDPA can figure a way to insulate themselves (and Match Directors and SO’s) from the liability risk of having people who participate in their sport pointing loaded firearms at their femoral artery, then I’m all for including it in the rulebook.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Am I misunderstanding? I've shot from the driver's seat in IDPA matches.
    You can SHOOT from inside the vehicle, but in all the sanctioned matches I have ever shot in you could not DRAW the gun from a holster on your person. They would have either a holster rigged up in the car on the steering wheel, or have you pick it up off the dashboard, have you pick it up off the passenger seat or out of a briefcase or something similar on the passenger seat , but I have never shot an IDPA match where they let you draw the gun off your person inside the vehicle.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 12-21-2021 at 08:34 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post

    To correct some disinformation in this post…
    1. There are no IDPA rules that prohibit drawing a gun from a holster in a vehicle in IDPA that I am aware of. Do a search for “vehicle” in the current IDPA rulebook if you’re not sure yourself. I’ve participated in, and SO’d several stages where this was done.
    While it may not be in the rule book I have never shot in , seen or even heard of a match above club level that actually allowed you to draw the gun from a holster inside a vehicle because of "safety concerns". What folks do at club level matches is beyond the scope of what IDPA can control (we drew gun while sitting atop a wooden horse at a club match once which they specifically said that would likely not pass IDPA muster due to high likelihood of sweeping strong side leg).

    I have drawn gun from holster in a tier 3 match while sitting on a riding lawn mower but they made us sit on it "sidesaddle" so both feet were on the same side of the seat and away from the holster. I've shot from inside the car at State, National and World level matches and none allowed you to draw the gun off your person, it was always pre-staged off body.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 12-21-2021 at 08:43 AM.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    A Benos expert said there is a GM AIWB concealed so if IDPA doesn't get the word, there is a place to go.

    What is the likihood of a cop or anybody reloading under fire before his gun is empty?
    In a recent incident in Houston, one of the cops involved did two reloads prior to slide lock. It's on a video, but the only link I have is to a Facebook upload:

    https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrime...53059901947818
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post

    To correct some disinformation in this post…


    2. IWB at 2:00 would be in violation of rule 8.5.J and K:
    “J. Must be positioned on the belt so that the center of the trigger pad is behind the centerline of the body.
    K. For IDPA purposes, the centerline of the body originates in the center of the armpit and goes straight down.”
    I didn't word that very well in my previous post. I carry at about 2 o'clock on a daily basis. I shoot IDPA with the gun as far forward as IDPA legal which is more like 2:45 o'clock . In an FBI canted IWB holster that can be as far forward as having the slide sitting under the watch pocket of a pair of jeans. I have successfully passed equipment check at state, national and world matches with that setup.

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