Tenicor Zero

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

You know what man......

Your point is well made.

Let me get with Shannon and talk to him about it. There really isn't any reason not to carry a few ARXs in our colors with our logos. Not sure what our minimums are with Jeff but I'm sure we could work something out.

A classy response from a classy dude, I'm grateful for this and everything you've given the defensive community.

blues, I definitely wasn't sure what to expect putting that out there but glad I asked now lol!

[blues]

A classy response from a classy dude, I'm grateful for this and everything you've given the defensive community.

blues, I definitely wasn't sure what to expect putting that out there but glad I asked now lol!

Look both ways when leaving your home...I'm just sayin'.

[blues]

Got mine yesterday and am familiarizing myself with the "work flow" as Jeff calls it. So far, so good.

The one thing that sort of caught my attention is that my JMCK 2.5 with DCC clips doesn't seem as secure when fitted over the belt in the same location I wear it with a couple of my Mastermind belts. (It was fine with PTD loops on a "George", and with the metal clip on DSG "Orion".)

It's not that it doesn't fit, it's that it seems less secure, as if the tooth might not hold or grab the belt optimally. (These are the universal Mod 4's in 1.5" size.)

I'll check this over the next few wearings to see how it progresses (or not). I'd hate to return it...

Otherwise, so far, (and very early on), it appears to be both comfortable and capable.

I think I see what is going on here. (Sorry for the self quote, but wanted to keep context.)

I just now was examining the JMCK holster with the DCC clips and the Zero and MMT belts while off the body and sans gun.

It appears that the Zero is not only thinner, (which is obvious), but is also very slightly less "tall" than the MMT belt. Therefore, it takes up less of the volume afforded within the DCC clip once it is placed over the belt...which allows for more rotation and wiggle room.

This is why I seem to notice the "tooth" protruding at the bottom of the belt, and the extra movement gives me the sense of "insecurity" that it may not hold in extremis.

Gonna have to ponder this as I hate to limit the options and only be able to use the belt with particular holsters...whether clip, PTD, or fixed loop.

Now I can see why @SouthNarc has had Jeff offer his ShivWorks iterations of the holsters, (Certum 3, Velo 4), with a looped version of the DCC clip which has to be threaded on the belt. That clip would be a better option with this belt, imho, since it mimics a fixed loop with the convenience of the adjustment afforded via the DCC clip.

I don't know if @Jeff M can provide further insight.

[Elwin]

I think I see what is going on here. (Sorry for the self quote, but wanted to keep context.)

I just now was examining the JMCK holster with the DCC clips and the Zero and MMT belts while off the body and sans gun.

It appears that the Zero is not only thinner, (which is obvious), but is also very slightly less "tall" than the MMT belt. Therefore, it takes up less of the volume afforded within the DCC clip once it is placed over the belt...which allows for more rotation and wiggle room.

This is why I seem to notice the "tooth" protruding at the bottom of the belt, and the extra movement gives me the sense of "insecurity" that it may not hold in extremis.
@Jeff M can provide further insight.

I had the same experience going from a Blue Alpha to the MMT D-Ring. The clips have more "play" on the MMT, in addition to the MMT itself being a flexier belt. I addressed this by adjusting hight and cant to get to where I wanted in terms of balance of rigidity and available rotation to follow my movements, but obviously I now have less than perfect adjustment on the occasions when I use an old belt for some reason. In other words, at least with the right combination of clip model and holster design, one can "fit" the holster and its clips to a particular belt.

[blues]

I had the same experience going from a Blue Alpha to the MMT D-Ring. The clips have more "play" on the MMT, in addition to the MMT itself being a flexier belt. I addressed this by adjusting hight and cant to get to where I wanted in terms of balance of rigidity and available rotation to follow my movements, but obviously I now have less than perfect adjustment on the occasions when I use an old belt for some reason. In other words, at least with the right combination of clip model and holster design, one can "fit" the holster and its clips to a particular belt.

The thing is, I can use any of my MMT belts, from thickest to thinnest, with any of my holsters and attachments without having to make any of the rigs fit a particular belt.

First world problem, but I am looking for the ability to use a given holster with more than one belt, (depending on planned activity / usage), without having to readjust and reorient each time.

Plus, I don't utilize cant for AIWB and I don't carry standard IWB. But I see where your method can provide solutions in certain circumstances.

[Elwin]

The thing is, I can use any of my MMT belts, from thickest to thinnest, with any of my holsters and attachments without having to make any of the rigs fit a particular belt.

First world problem, but I am looking for the ability to use a given holster with more than one belt, (depending on planned activity / usage), without having to readjust and reorient each time.

Plus, I don't utilize cant for AIWB and I don't carry standard IWB. But I see where your method can provide solutions in certain circumstances.

My method mostly is to get me just enough but not too much reverse cant for AIWB. It definitely does require picking a primary belt to work with, which I acknowledge would be a no go for others. I pay for it the rare times I use a Blue Alpha for whatever reason - there’s less flex and I don’t get enough reverse cant to have the degree of comfort I normally do.

[blues]

I ended up spending a few good hours on and off with the belt today while comparing it with a few of my favorite belts, each with various holsters in an apples to apples showdown with my daily carry G26 Gen5.

...and while I haven't completely come to grips with my consternation with the way the DCC clips interface with the belt...overall the Tenicor Zero may very well be the best all around AIWB belt for my purposes and modes of carry. I stress "my" uses. Others may have different requirements.

It was the best at overall concealment, it adjusts easily enough, stays out of the way once I have it set where I want, holds its setting and is flexible and comfortable standing, sitting, moving...all while keeping my AIWB rigs tight to my torso. Roll-out was not an issue at all.

So, I think it's safe to say that I'll be keeping it barring any unexpected eventuality...even if I don't completely come to terms with the DCC clips.

(Oh, and my buddy @Jason M mentioned during a phone conversation today that he is very pleased with his...and that he was wearing it with an OWB rig on this occasion.)

[jeffm]

Webbing height variations
Looking at some old belts I have:
OG Instructor belt: 1.491
LowPro EDC: 1.479
Old Specialist: 1.502
Aegis: 1.465
ZERO: 1.503

Another factor can be the DCC clip. There is a range that is in spec for the loop/clip and some vary. Most probably won't notice it, but we see thousands every month and have seen some variation.

The biggest factor is the total thickness of material clamped in between the two side of the clip. A Carhartt waistband is very different than a light weight Kuhl pant and this very much effects how the gun carries. So yes the thinness of the ZERO belt (what we call a 1.5X thickness) is going to perform differently than a LowPro EDC that has two layers of webbing and loop velcro.

On something like a VELO or SAGAX LUX this is mostly a non-issue as the clips are spaced far apart. But with something like a CERTUM where the clips are close together or if you run a single clip, then you may see more movement.

In my opinion a standard DCC HLR clip like the T1 works perfectly well with the ZERO. In fact, if we made the belt for anything, we made if for the HRL clips. The T1 Loop came after the ZERO belt from a design standpoint. And we did make the loop to work with the belt, but it should work well with any modern concealment belt in the 1.5" variety.

[blues]

Webbing height variations
Looking at some old belts I have:
OG Instructor belt: 1.491
LowPro EDC: 1.479
Old Specialist: 1.502
Aegis: 1.465
ZERO: 1.503

Another factor can be the DCC clip. There is a range that is in spec for the loop/clip and some vary. Most probably won't notice it, but we see thousands every month and have seen some variation.

The biggest factor is the total thickness of material clamped in between the two side of the clip. A Carhartt waistband is very different than a light weight Kuhl pant and this very much effects how the gun carries. So yes the thinness of the ZERO belt (what we call a 1.5X thickness) is going to perform differently than a LowPro EDC that has two layers of webbing and loop velcro.

On something like a VELO or SAGAX LUX this is mostly a non-issue as the clips are spaced far apart. But with something like a CERTUM where the clips are close together or if you run a single clip, then you may see more movement.

In my opinion a standard DCC HLR clip like the T1 works perfectly well with the ZERO. In fact, if we made the belt for anything, we made if for the HRL clips. The T1 Loop came after the ZERO belt from a design standpoint. And we did make the loop to work with the belt, but it should work well with any modern concealment belt in the 1.5" variety.

I think your points are well made, Jeff, and there may very well be a bit of "stacking" of intangibles involved. That said, as I mentioned to you via PM, I am very satisfied with the belt after my testing, wearing and using, and am now convinced that it is a game changer for me personally.

[blues]

@jeffm


Here's a couple images that my buddy @Jason M just sent me a few minutes ago. (He took them after we had discussed my previously perceived concern about the "bite" of the DCC Mod 4 clip when mounted on the Zero belt.)

The images will illustrate what my concern was way better than my words described it...and better still, Jason mentioned that he and a colleague did some rolling with the holster and Zero belt and pronounced it good to go, and ready for duty. Jason is one of those folks whose opinion carries a great deal of weight with me, and whose word I take at face value.

He estimated that about 3mm of the clip's "tooth" engaged the belt. (Obviously, more of the "tooth" would engage with an upward tug.)








This is "exactly" what I was seeing in the mirror and what I was trying to convey in the posts above.