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Thread: Size/strength doesn't matter, and other lies you were told.

  1. #11
    "You'll break your hand if you punch someone in the face."

    While you could break your hand, making it a blanket statement is a falsehood. Three times in my life, I've one-punch KO'd a grown man who was trying their level best to hit me and only once was my hand even sore. And all of those took place at least a decade after I'd last punched a makiwara board or what have you.

  2. #12
    I feel like Ive gotten screwed on that subject, Ive broken the bone behind my pinky finger 3 damn times.

  3. #13
    I think discussing “strength doesn’t matter” as an axiom of bjj/MMA that humorously doesn’t ring true in the training room is a conversation separate from the matter of a self defense fight possibly ending in gunfire. The conversation so far has meandered back and forth between both realms.

    In the ensuing discussion, we fell into the trap of downplaying the huge advantage that skill provides. Which seems to often present as an excuse not to train by the self defense oriented general public.

    IMO it would be better to separate size and strength (S&S) as related to training against other trained fighters from self defense against a motivated but untrained person. For that matter, debating strength vs technique with untrained or minimally trained people is pointless because they don’t really comprehend the skill variable.

    The replies seem to meander back and forth between the training and self defense arenas depending on which one supports your arguments more at the moment.

    I postulate that if drawn on a graph S&S crosses the technique line at some point. IMO that point is much higher than some of the posts suggest.

    A high level of technical skill overcomes a LOT of untrained size and strength. Anyone who trains in a decent sized facility sees that in action all the time. For example, to a striker with several years in and hundreds of rounds of sparring under his belt, a strike thrown by an untrained person of any size registers in slow motion like Neo in the Matrix.

    Also, for now let’s leave the initiative deficit problem of self defense out of it and just focus on skill vs S&S.

    Those who regularly train in MMA or one of its core component arts fall prey to Dunning-Krueger like anyone else does. In regular training we see big strong guys get a 2-3 year blue belt base of skill and quickly begin to erase the gap with those who are smaller but much more technical. So yes a mid level blue belt skill large guy can beat a high level small guy because S&S turbo charges your skill. It’s a very human mistake to extrapolate that difference to every jacked guy you see walking around.

    This is where I think it helps to separate the training and fighting arenas of combat. Obviously in my example of the jacked blue belt, the graph line starts closer crosses earlier, and is more vertical. But Is that example a realistic way to judge for a street altercation?

    To use the previous example, how many 275 pound high level wrestlers are there walking around? For that matter how many ~ 250# physically fit people are walking around period?

    The vast majority of potential threats aren’t walking the streets with 2+ years of boxing/wrestling/bjj but I will concede there is a high percentage of strong/fit potential adversaries. That is why having a high level of skill is important IMO.

    As noted previously tools are also a major factor in self defense. The right tool employed at the right time alone can overcome both S&S and skill to some extent. So what are we talking about?

    For the sake of discussion I propose something roughly like:

    S&S > couch potato
    Skill > 75% of the S&S differences
    Skill+ some S&S > 25% S&S monsters
    S&S + tool > S&S alone
    Skill+ tool > S&S + tool
    Skill+ tool+ some S&S > most any threats

    I’m not saying this dumb chart I just made up is gospel and there are gradients to each category but even if the stuff I just scribbled is way off the mark it’s in the right grid square.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPF View Post

    For the sake of discussion I propose something roughly like:

    S&S > couch potato
    Skill > 75% of the S&S differences
    Skill+ some S&S > 25% S&S monsters
    S&S + tool > S&S alone
    Skill+ tool > S&S + tool
    Skill+ tool+ some S&S > most any threats

    I’m not saying this dumb chart I just made up is gospel and there are gradients to each category but even if the stuff I just scribbled is way off the mark it’s in the right grid square.
    I can pretty much get behind your scribbling, per above. Tangentially, this reminds me of a favorite cool guy T-shirt by Mark Luell; laconic truth in iconic form:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    ”When antisemitism moves from the shameful fringe into the public square, it is not about Jews… it is about the surrounding society or the culture or the country. It is an early warning system—a sign that the society itself is breaking down. That it is dying.” -Bari Weiss

  5. #15
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt_Overide View Post
    I feel like Ive gotten screwed on that subject, Ive broken the bone behind my pinky finger 3 damn times.
    Yeah I'm also dragging the average up here with three of my own. Yes, it's always been from connecting on a shot that landed wrong, and no, I don't think there was a good way of predicting it. Sometimes you just connect wrong, or at least that's happened to me.

    I will say that in no instance did it even slow me down mid-fight. I just felt it break and thought "god damn it, that again?" and kept on going. So sure, maybe you will break part of your hand, but it won't necessarily have much effect on the outcome.
    This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maple Syrup Actual View Post
    Yeah I'm also dragging the average up here with three of my own. Yes, it's always been from connecting on a shot that landed wrong, and no, I don't think there was a good way of predicting it. Sometimes you just connect wrong, or at least that's happened to me.

    I will say that in no instance did it even slow me down mid-fight. I just felt it break and thought "god damn it, that again?" and kept on going. So sure, maybe you will break part of your hand, but it won't necessarily have much effect on the outcome.
    People act like you can't move or use a broken bone.

    Like nah...you can.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by EPF View Post
    I think discussing “strength doesn’t matter” as an axiom of bjj/MMA that humorously doesn’t ring true in the training room is a conversation separate from the matter of a self defense fight possibly ending in gunfire. The conversation so far has meandered back and forth between both realms.

    In the ensuing discussion, we fell into the trap of downplaying the huge advantage that skill provides. Which seems to often present as an excuse not to train by the self defense oriented general public.

    IMO it would be better to separate size and strength (S&S) as related to training against other trained fighters from self defense against a motivated but untrained person. For that matter, debating strength vs technique with untrained or minimally trained people is pointless because they don’t really comprehend the skill variable.

    The replies seem to meander back and forth between the training and self defense arenas depending on which one supports your arguments more at the moment.

    I postulate that if drawn on a graph S&S crosses the technique line at some point. IMO that point is much higher than some of the posts suggest.

    A high level of technical skill overcomes a LOT of untrained size and strength. Anyone who trains in a decent sized facility sees that in action all the time. For example, to a striker with several years in and hundreds of rounds of sparring under his belt, a strike thrown by an untrained person of any size registers in slow motion like Neo in the Matrix.

    Also, for now let’s leave the initiative deficit problem of self defense out of it and just focus on skill vs S&S.

    Those who regularly train in MMA or one of its core component arts fall prey to Dunning-Krueger like anyone else does. In regular training we see big strong guys get a 2-3 year blue belt base of skill and quickly begin to erase the gap with those who are smaller but much more technical. So yes a mid level blue belt skill large guy can beat a high level small guy because S&S turbo charges your skill. It’s a very human mistake to extrapolate that difference to every jacked guy you see walking around.

    This is where I think it helps to separate the training and fighting arenas of combat. Obviously in my example of the jacked blue belt, the graph line starts closer crosses earlier, and is more vertical. But Is that example a realistic way to judge for a street altercation?

    To use the previous example, how many 275 pound high level wrestlers are there walking around? For that matter how many ~ 250# physically fit people are walking around period?

    The vast majority of potential threats aren’t walking the streets with 2+ years of boxing/wrestling/bjj but I will concede there is a high percentage of strong/fit potential adversaries. That is why having a high level of skill is important IMO.

    As noted previously tools are also a major factor in self defense. The right tool employed at the right time alone can overcome both S&S and skill to some extent. So what are we talking about?

    For the sake of discussion I propose something roughly like:

    S&S > couch potato
    Skill > 75% of the S&S differences
    Skill+ some S&S > 25% S&S monsters
    S&S + tool > S&S alone
    Skill+ tool > S&S + tool
    Skill+ tool+ some S&S > most any threats

    I’m not saying this dumb chart I just made up is gospel and there are gradients to each category but even if the stuff I just scribbled is way off the mark it’s in the right grid square.
    I was having some trouble wrapping my head around the relationship of S&S, skill, tool work. Obviously maximizing all of them is best.

    I think you're right about the fight vs training stuff. Not having skill in my corner, I keep my my confidence in check with regards to training and fights. I have seen poor results from someone who thought that their ability in training meant ability in fighting. They were wrong. And it was a hard lesson for them.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Maple Syrup Actual View Post
    Yeah I'm also dragging the average up here with three of my own. Yes, it's always been from connecting on a shot that landed wrong, and no, I don't think there was a good way of predicting it. Sometimes you just connect wrong, or at least that's happened to me.

    I will say that in no instance did it even slow me down mid-fight. I just felt it break and thought "god damn it, that again?" and kept on going. So sure, maybe you will break part of your hand, but it won't necessarily have much effect on the outcome.
    same thing for me, target moved and I only connected with 2 knuckles on two of em, the last one felt like a flush hit, but it broke anyway.

  9. #19
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    People act like you can't move or use a broken bone.

    Like nah...you can.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

    Maybe. I for sure couldn't close my last two fingers with my boxer's fracture. It didn't hurt at the time, it just physically wouldn't close the fingers.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  10. #20
    When I was first doing BJJ, the take down class felt like a high school wrestling match. It required anaerobic conditioning and strength which I had not expected. Even the professor was so powerfully built i could not move him for certain techniques. I think personally that in both shooting and martial arts fitness is the key for being sucessful

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