Rifle Caliber for Hunting the West

[Cool Breeze]

Going back to caliber selection. When factoring in factory ammo does this change the recommendation?

Its one thing to say that I recommend abc because it can do xyz but if that is only under optimal hand loads it is really not helpful (at least as I read it in this situation). A lot of these youtube channels, when talking about ballistics, pull up some hornady or nosler handload book and give you the stats. That is great if you handload but if you don't...how much does the caliber preference change if you limit cartridge selection to only what is available from the factory? Just out of pure curiosity I've watched a few of these youtubers and the only one I have seen really recommend a factory load is Randy Newberg and it was was 7mm-08 140 gr. Nosler Accubond Trophy Grade, .308 165 gr Partition Trophy Grade, or .308 168gr E-tip Trophy grade. I think he has also used 300 win mag in certain situations too. But even then, he is sponsored by Nosler - so I guess you never know.

Or are factory loadings so good these days it really doesn't matter?

[okie john]

Going back to caliber selection. When factoring in factory ammo does this change the recommendation?

Its one thing to say that I recommend abc because it can do xyz but if that is only under optimal hand loads it is really not helpful (at least as I read it in this situation). A lot of these youtube channels, when talking about ballistics, pull up some hornady or nosler handload book and give you the stats. That is great if you handload but if you don't...how much does the caliber preference change if you limit cartridge selection to only what is available from the factory? Just out of pure curiosity I've watched a few of these youtubers and the only one I have seen really recommend a factory load is Randy Newberg and it was was 7mm-08 140 gr. Nosler Accubond Trophy Grade, .308 165 gr Partition Trophy Grade, or .308 168gr E-tip Trophy grade. I think he has also used 300 win mag in certain situations too. But even then, he is sponsored by Nosler - so I guess you never know.

Or are factory loadings so good these days it really doesn't matter?

Modern hunting cartridges and loads are more alike than they are different. As a rule of thumb, the newer a cartridge is, the more accurate it tends to be and the less fiddling it requires to be field-ready.

Any superiority of handloads over factory ammo depends on the cartridge itself. Old cartridges like the 7x57 Mauser, 8x57 Mauser, and 45-70 Springfield are radically underloaded to keep them from blowing up old guns. Handloads in modern firearms can increase velocity 3-400 fps or more with the same or greater bullet weights of all of these. This can also go the other way--some cartridges that are loaded to full power today were loaded 2-300 fps slower 30 or 40 years ago.

308 and 30-06 factory loads are usually within 100 fps of each other. You can easily see that much difference between a rifle in ether chambering that tends to run slow versus one that tends to run fast. Handloading can bump up the 30-06 in standard bullet weights (150-180 grains) by 150-175 fps; whether that juice is worth the squeeze is another story. Modern handloads in the 30-06 shine with modern powders and bullets over about 200 grains. At that point the difference between the 308 and the 30-06 starts to matter, but we've stacked the deck heavily in favor of the 30-06.

Most cartridges introduced since privately-owned chronographs became common were developed with accuracy specifically in mind. They're only chambered in modern rifles, so factory ammo is loaded to full power and it tends to be accurate. Any discussion of the superiority of handloads over factory loads for them must include how the load was developed and why. Chances are that a third of it comes from chasing an inconsequential increment of velocity or accuracy, a third comes from trying to make some odd combination of components work in a specific rifle, and the rest is just there to give youtubers something to talk about.

4 MOA will put a lot of meat on the table if you're a good hunter. 2 MOA will put a lot of meat on the table if you can shoot. 1 MOA provides confidence but you really don't need it until you get to distances where few of us have any business shooting at game. 0.5 MOA can inspire overconfidence, especially if you only see it in small doses.

Finally, developing the ability to shoot consistent 1 MOA groups in the field means getting away from the bench, duplicating hunting conditions in training, swallowing a boatload of pride, and burning a boatload of ammo. That's not sexy so there's not much of it on YouTube.


Okie John

[peterb]

Finally, developing the ability to shoot consistent 1 MOA groups in the field means getting away from the bench, duplicating hunting conditions in training, swallowing a boatload of pride, and burning a boatload of ammo. That's not sexy so there's not much of it on YouTube.

Can some of the work on offhand and position shooting be done effectively with a rimfire rifle, using reduced-scale targets at reduced range? You obviously wouldn’t get the wind doping practice, but I’d think some of the basic skills could be improved with a similar setup.

[okie john]

Can some of the work on offhand and position shooting be done effectively with a rimfire rifle, using reduced-scale targets at reduced range? You obviously wouldn’t get the wind doping practice, but I’d think some of the basic skills could be improved with a similar setup.

Absolutely. And you can definitely learn to dope wind with a 22 as ranges increase.


Okie John

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Can some of the work on offhand and position shooting be done effectively with a rimfire rifle, using reduced-scale targets at reduced range? You obviously wouldn’t get the wind doping practice, but I’d think some of the basic skills could be improved with a similar setup.

Google NRL22 matches, here is my son shooting a "bonus stage" at a NRL 22 match several years ago....

The hunting season after this match he used a gamechanger bag rested on the back of a ladder stand to take an awkward shot that I may not have let him, if he had never left a bench...

[UNM1136]

Going back to caliber selection. When factoring in factory ammo does this change the recommendation?

Its one thing to say that I recommend abc because it can do xyz but if that is only under optimal hand loads it is really not helpful (at least as I read it in this situation). A lot of these youtube channels, when talking about ballistics, pull up some hornady or nosler handload book and give you the stats. That is great if you handload but if you don't...how much does the caliber preference change if you limit cartridge selection to only what is available from the factory? Just out of pure curiosity I've watched a few of these youtubers and the only one I have seen really recommend a factory load is Randy Newberg and it was was 7mm-08 140 gr. Nosler Accubond Trophy Grade, .308 165 gr Partition Trophy Grade, or .308 168gr E-tip Trophy grade. I think he has also used 300 win mag in certain situations too. But even then, he is sponsored by Nosler - so I guess you never know.

Or are factory loadings so good these days it really doesn't matter?

IME good rounds is good rounds. But with my heirloom '03A3 ANYTHING over 150 grains is no go. 165s double the size ofthe group. 180s quadruple it. I know this because I shoot the shit out of my guns, especially if I count on them for life stuff. Survival (my Glocks and ARs), or food (my '03A3 and muzzle loader).

Barnes TTSX 150 gr rounds have done me happy. They are not what I would consider mathematically ideal for elk or moose, but I shoot the shit outta my stuff. They will keel. With 150s I can tell you the expected drift of my rounds as the barrel of my rifle heats up for the first 10 rounds. I shoot my hunting gun that much. A 500 yard shot is ethical; I can put it in a dinner plate at that distance. For the first three rounds. After that we start stringing to the right.

If you are a bench rester or have the time and money to do a five figure hunt then your edge begins with handloading, and includes a super rig. I have handloaded, in the past, but not now, and it was an economy thing, not an accuracy/lethality thing.

If you hunt when and where you can you absolutely have to know what you can do, and pass on marginal or worse shots.

The whole spiritual or ethical hunter thing includes passing on marginal shots and taking the ones you know you can make. Conditions you can control (rifle, cartridge, training, experience) are super important, but those you can't control (environment, range, weather) still get a vote.

I guess what I am saying is that you can do what you want. If you post it on the internet then you will either be a hero or a zero, and the facts have little to do with it. If you take a 400 yard shot and make it you are either super cool, or or unethical and lucky.

pat

[TWR]

Very few people shoot enough to know their rifles. Those that do, know their limits or maybe boundaries is a better word.

The latest and greatest whizbangers can help but will never equal actually shooting enough to know your rifle.

[Salamander]

Lots of good information in this thread. I'm going to come at it from a different direction because while I've never hunted elk (tags are hard to get here on the coast, and most locals go out of state to stock the freezer), I do encounter lots of elk while on project sites or weekend backcountry hikes.

There's a lot of regional variation, as some have touched on above. Although I'm a transplant from Illinois some 21 years ago, I spent a lot of time out here before permanently relocating and I'm an ecologist by training. For many flatlanders, the habitat diversity and microclimate in the mountains comes as a revelation. It can be tall timber on a north facing slope, and dense brush on the next south facing slope. Even age second growth woods are very different from multi-canopy mature forest. Up higher, the weather can change in minutes, and then change again. Saturday it was 55 here in the coastal fog, low 60s a few miles inland, and by the time I got to the range 12 miles inland and a couple thousand feet higher it was 10 degrees cooler.

Here on the coast we have Roosevelt elk, which can get really large and sometimes are fairly easy to approach. I looked for a photo from a few years ago and can't seem to find it right now, I was walking the edge of willow/alder riparian habitat through a coastal prairie opening not far from old growth redwood, came around a corner, and found myself 25 yards from a bull elk... in the fall. One photo, and back out of there. That's perhaps a little closer than usual, but 100 yard observations are common in those prairie openings most of the year. A few counties southeast in oak woodland, most of my observations have been at over 300 yards and close approach is difficult.

Sightlines and terrain vary a lot. There are places near here where it's hard to see 50 feet, and there's a twice-burned wilderness about 100 miles away with vistas stretching sometimes for miles. Anyone in above average shape can acclimate pretty quickly to the terrain and up to mid elevations, that doesn't make it easy or fast to get to that next ridge.

Wind... yeah. Our rifle range is in a valley with low mountains on three sides. Usually pretty calm in the morning, usually breezy later in the day. Not at all unusual for the 100 yard flag to be blowing in a different direction than the ones at 300 or 500. The up/downdrafts are less of an issue at that particular location but it's very real in many places with terrain.

My suggestion is find a landscape that appeals, and then spend some time hiking and getting to know it.

[ECVMatt]

I have used the 30/06 for many years and it has proven reliable. From deer to moose it just works for me. There is also the finding ammo thing when you are in a somewhat remote location. Last time I was in AK we left from the small town of Aniak. They had a well stocked store with all of the staple cartridges on the shelf. They had zero of the newer rounds. That is just something to consider. I have stuck to more traditional bullets and have had great success with them. the 165 Grn. Gameking is a great bullet for deer. It is not fancy, but it works. Like others here I try not shoot beyond 300 yards in the field. I enjoy the stalk as much as the shot, so trying to get close is a must.

I do feel it is important to get a cartridge and rifle that interests you and that you would like to learn to shoot. If the .308 - 30/06 are too pedestrian I get that. Just know that you don't have to get too caught up in the latest and greatest to have a good hunting rifle.

From the ridgetops to the river bottoms, the 30/06 will get it done.

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[Shotgun]

. . . Finally, start doing cardio today. The highest point in Connecticut is ~2,400 feet above sea level, which is lower than where most Western hunting starts. The difference in your performance between low elevations and 5,000’ ASL can be a slap in the face if you’re not expecting it. Lungs the size of grocery sacks are the goal.

None of this stuff is sexy, but it’s all more important than whatever rifle, scope, and cartridge you end up buying.


Okie John

Quit talking sense Okie John.

On a serious note, what a great post. Something like that could be turned into an article for Sports Afield. To sum up, a butt that looks like chewed bubble gum is severely limited on a mountain elk hunt. Regarding the rifle, I don't recall reading whether NPV said whether he has shot a lot or whether he is recoil sensitive in any way. NPV, you might try finding a friend or acquaintance who has a 300 WM and go shoot it before you go that route. The 7 mm you are considering recoils slightly heavier than a 30-06 and may be much more pleasurable to practice with if there is any recoil sensitivity.