@awp_101, I'm seeing about 4" of spread at 7yds in your group. That's a lot of error to come from poor trigger control. You did mention grip, and it's possible you're overgripping the gun. Another source of large deviations is from pushing down on the gun before it fires, or while it fires. This can be fairly subtle, but can produce large deviations. In my experience it's by far the most common reason for large POI errors--especially in a down/left string.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
@awp_101 you mention hand and wrist issues. This is a recent occurrence with me. Likely result of leashed dog chasing a squirrel...
I have found that flagging the strong hand thumb, counteracts tremors. Not so much muscular tension, but more positional. Also, the mentality of finishing flat, and being aware of the inside corners of the rear sight as mentioned by @Clusterfrack.
Taking a break from social media.
I was playing around today at 50 yards with various pistols five rounds at a time. The five circled were from a box stock Glock P80/17 with the factory plastic sights, freestyle, two hand grip. The B6 bullseye is 8 inches across so I’m guessing that’s in the 4 inch neighborhood.
I can tell you that my grip is anything but a crush grip in either hand. My primary/right hand is utilizing the trigger, middle, and ring fingers only while the thumb and pinky are just along for the ride. My support hand is more active….but nowhere near a crush grip.
Like others here said I suspect it’s vision based as well as trigger control….or movement of the gun just prior to ignition.
Regards.
Thanks, that’s context I never realized about that style of gripping.Originally Posted by GJM
I know I have developed a pre-ignition flinch with my centerfire pistols but I’ve never caught it happening with the .22s. Doesn’t mean it’s not happening through. I’ll post the targets from re-zeroing dot on the other 22/45. It’s hard for me to believe they they came from the same session and I’m the one that shot them.
Interesting, I went all in on thumbs forward some time back but this may be worth trying.
My hand/wrist/arm/elbow problems started over 20 years ago in the Army and have only been exacerbated by being in a career field that either has me turning screwdrivers and other hand tools or on a computer daily, usually both.
I think what happened today is a combination of eyes and sights not playing well, the wrong grip for the type of shooting I was doing and a bad case of “just try harder”. It’s probably also what happened the session before but I just chalked it up to having a bad day at the range.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits - Mark Twain
Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy / Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
There is your answer. It’s vision. With a dot you didn’t have the issue.
Indoor ranges can suck for irons if there’s not good enough lighting to see your irons. The type of target you were aiming at (with black lines) didn’t help either.
If you want to do the experiment to see the contribution of vision, go back to the indoor range with the same irons upper and the same target. But also shoot the gun to a clean sheet of copy paper with a 1” paster in the middle. I’ll bet your clean sheet target doesn’t have the spread the busy black lined target does.
If it’s identical between the two, it’s something else.
@Clusterfrack
It looks to me like an issue with grip consistency.
IME grip errors are usually lateral.
Vertical stringing is usually either a visual / timing issue or a an issue with core /shoulder weakness.
Hard to say which without seeing your shoot.
I agree that vision is a reasonable hypothesis. Indoor lighting and iron sights can be challenging. However, 4" is a lot at 7 yds, and the 2:00 - 8:00 pattern seems hard to reconcile with misalignment of the sights. The urge to push down on the gun can be affected by vision, as can a bad trigger press or a grip-related issue.
As suggested, a better target--and maybe shooting even closer--will help clear this up.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Yes, it’s likely multi factorial but what I’m cueing in on is that he said his RDS target wasn’t that bad…. But we don’t know what that means.
Maybe his RDS target had a 2.5” spread with typical low left flinch.
Then add poor visual contrast irons and targets to get another 1.5” of vertical string on top of that.
Yeah, about that whole core/upper body thing...let’s just say that’s suboptimal as well.Since I discovered my carbine is a bit portly at just over 9# I’ve been thinking some rifle PT is a good idea.
I went back through my targets and put this together. All were shot at 7 yards and again, ignore the shot order as it’s just a guess and the targets were oriented vertically. Stupid software turned the pics 90* so when I fixed the orientation the numbers were off by 90*.
First 20 shots of the day. This was a warm up with the iron sight 22/45.
The target in post 1 was my second target and the wheels came off that very slow moving bus.
Here's the third target with that same 22/45 after 1 mag through a new to me B92C and 96G for familiarization.
After firing a few more types of pistols I ended the session by tweaking the zero on the dotted 22/45, here's what those look like
(I didn't call the low left shot)
In the past I would have told myself I need to pay more attention, try harder and maybe I should get serious about dry fire. But now I realize all the dry fire in the world won't help if I don't know what the issues are and the order they should be fixed. It's looking more and more like I need to find a good beginner class and get my foundation fixed.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits - Mark Twain
Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy / Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Reply With Quote
