Active shooter at bordering school

[JRB]

I think there's a big difference between what you're envisioning and what's going on here. From what I've read that's been reported in the media, it sounds to me like the parents are likely as fucked in the head as the kid and are closer to being accomplices to this act than simply bystanders to a tragedy they failed to prevent.

Regular ole' parents to latch-key kids don't get told their kid is a fucking danger and then not only buy the kid a gun, but allow him access to it and tell him "just don't get caught" or whatever it was (I can't remember verbatim).

My read on the situation is that it's likely more realistic to think of them as being accomplices to a crime rather than just clueless parents who are being railroaded for being irresponsible.

Sincerely,

A kid that had access to all the guns in our house growing up

Seems I could have done better on explaining my concerns - We're on the same page about the parents, and their alleged cleaning out bank accounts and taking off as well as everything else I've seen reported is all pointing squarely at 'they fucked up and they know it'.
I figure that's something they'll sort out when they stand trial, and I'm trying my best not to jump to any conclusions there.

But the situation makes me worry that the Twitter-sized attention span of the general public won't be able to appreciate the difference between 'kid has access to guns' houses like the ones we grew up in, and a situation like this one.

[RolandRed]

The way I see it, parents should be prosecuted in all cases: either for knowing but not doing anything, or for raising a child badly and not knowing anything about it.
Either you don't have to give birth if you're not going to raise it.

[UNM1136]

Oops, double tap...

pat

[UNM1136]

Even if you have a gonzo safe, are you going to make the kid leave the room every time you open the safe? If not he can watch out the corner of his eye and after a few times he'll know the combination.

<Rising to the bait> That is part of the overall plan. My safe is in my closet. Even if the kids are helping me carry guns they don't even know it is open until I call them. My memory assists for the 4 digit mechanical combination are stored elsewhere and only used when necessary, like I have been trying for 10 minutes and can't get it open and need to refresh. And the keys that lock the dial are stored hidden, separately. Experienced investigators with a search warrant would likely find them, but not quickly. I have also recently started placing telltales to see if my kids were playing with the safe when I wasn't home, because of their age.

I like to pick locks. Safecracking is not in my skillset. By the time my kids learn to crack safes I think they will no longer be kids.

With an angle grinder you will set my house on fire before you get in; I bought a quality safe that was way more expensive and better built than the Cabella's specials I just looked at. The safe had to be partially disassembled to get it into that part of the house.

I get where you seem to be going that it is more imortant to gunproof your kid than kidproof your guns. I also agree. But I have always thought it smart to do both. Two of my kids like to shoot. One wants to shoot, but has a history of self harm and suicidal ideation. It is not a comfortable area to discuss, but there are many things about learning to parent for teenagers that I have found uncomfortable. And I still have to deal with and discuss them.

pat

[UNM1136]

My new problem is after my dad's covid death yesterday, I may need another, bigger safe for all the guns I am going to have to store. But they won't come in the house until I can store them safely and securely, and I want a similar safe to my 20 year old Weatherby that is built, well, like a vault.

I know my kids go through my shit in my room. I know I did the same when I was a teen. That is where I got interested in lock picking and lock bypass. Long story. Several of my Spydercos and at least one of my Emersons is missing, and I am sure the kids have/had/or lost them. I also have reason to believe that they have not messed with the safe.

pat

[WobblyPossum]

My condolences for the loss of your father.

[whomever]

"With an angle grinder you will set my house on fire before you get in;"

1)That's why you hose down the surrounding area first.
2)Personally, if I'm breaking into your safe prior to committing mass murder, I'm not worrying about whether the house burns down.

The above is partly tongue in cheek, and partly a serious comment. My experience is that nice people playing defense frequently don't fully envision all the options open to an attacker who thinks outside the box a little. Like, the last few times you opened the safe did you check for a cell phone taped to the ceiling recording video?

"I get where you seem to be going that it is more important to gunproof your kid than kidproof your guns."

I do agree with gunproofing your kids. Dad's pistol and ammo were in his sock drawer - I'd see it when I put away his socks after folding the laundry. But I wouldn't have messed with it for the world because, well, when Dad told me something...

But a couple of responses seem to be missing what I was trying to say, so let me clarify. I'm not taking any position on the recent incident; I don't have the facts. I was trying to point out that even meeting the letter (and spirit!) of safe storage laws really isn't a huge deterrent to a determined attacker with time on their hands, like someone who lives in your house. Note that 'not a huge' is not the same thing as 'none at all'. If I was your kid and taped the cellphone to the ceiling above the safe, I'd realize there was a risk you'd see it, and I'd get spanked/grounded/whatever. I know what an angle grinder with the right blade can do a safe from experience - I'm a hobby metalworker - but maybe your kid doesn't have that experience and would worry about you coming home from the store and finding the safe half opened.

And of course, locking up one's guns is good if you get burgled anyway.

I feel for you, and applaud all you have done. We know a couple where one spouse was suicidal. They only kept one kitchen knife, and by agreement the other spouse took it to work during the day. It's a tough problem.

I also don't think it is a one-size-fits-all problem. Most parents don't lock up the booze or car keys. OTOH, suppose someone's teen gets drunk and takes the car for a spin while they are at Costco. Maybe that parent needs to lock up the booze and car keys going forward. That may not extrapolate to every parent should.

[UNM1136]

'Preciate it. I have been preparing myself for about 5 years, since his stroke. It took 5 days in the hospital, and he didn't know he had covid when he went in.

But I will have a lot of guns to sort though, distribute among the kids, and ulitmately store.

pat

[UNM1136]

"With an angle grinder you will set my house on fire before you get in;"

1)That's why you hose down the surrounding area first.
2)Personally, if I'm breaking into your safe prior to committing mass murder, I'm not worrying about whether the house burns down.

The above is partly tongue in cheek, and partly a serious comment. My experience is that nice people playing defense frequently don't fully envision all the options open to an attacker who thinks outside the box a little. Like, the last few times you opened the safe did you check for a cell phone taped to the ceiling recording video?

"I get where you seem to be going that it is more important to gunproof your kid than kidproof your guns."

I do agree with gunproofing your kids. Dad's pistol and ammo were in his sock drawer - I'd see it when I put away his socks after folding the laundry. But I wouldn't have messed with it for the world because, well, when Dad told me something...

But a couple of responses seem to be missing what I was trying to say, so let me clarify. I'm not taking any position on the recent incident; I don't have the facts. I was trying to point out that even meeting the letter (and spirit!) of safe storage laws really isn't a huge deterrent to a determined attacker with time on their hands, like someone who lives in your house. Note that 'not a huge' is not the same thing as 'none at all'. If I was your kid and taped the cellphone to the ceiling above the safe, I'd realize there was a risk you'd see it, and I'd get spanked/grounded/whatever. I know what an angle grinder with the right blade can do a safe from experience - I'm a hobby metalworker - but maybe your kid doesn't have that experience and would worry about you coming home from the store and finding the safe half opened.

And of course, locking up one's guns is good if you get burgled anyway.

I feel for you, and applaud all you have done. We know a couple where one spouse was suicidal. They only kept one kitchen knife, and by agreement the other spouse took it to work during the day. It's a tough problem.

I also don't think it is a one-size-fits-all problem. Most parents don't lock up the booze or car keys. OTOH, suppose someone's teen gets drunk and takes the car for a spin while they are at Costco. Maybe that parent needs to lock up the booze and car keys going forward. That may not extrapolate to every parent should.

Good clarificarion and excellent points, thanks.

I agree that determination and creativity can negate any and all precautions, and when the reward is high enough, the risk will be taken.

My step mom retired out of a .mil intelligence agency with an international mandate to test and break US facilities' security. They recruited heavily from Ft. Bragg SMU guys that were E9s and wanted to retire as CSM. Creative breaking and entering has been a hobby of mine for a while, and the human componant is almost always the weak link.

There does come a point of dimishing returns in security topics, and therein lies the weakness. Every measure has a countermeasure. If I can think of something, given enough resourses you can come up with a way to get past it. That is the game we are really playing: can I create a situation that you decide it is too much work, requires too many resources, and is too much effort to try to overcome? No security plan is fool proof, and the trick is to be the last one to give up.

pat

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm not ok with posts that say one gunproofed their kids or that one was a good kid, exposed to guns and did nothing wrong. That is all well and good for some people. However, not all kids are the same. For folks in the mental health business we know that parents can be very, very naive about the world their children live in and specifically their vulnerabilities to pressure and short term pressures that occur before you even have a chance to know about. They may present a front to you so that you have no idea until something bad happens. I could list this or that case but they are plentiful in real numbers.

Yes, it is the case that young folks with access to guns have saved the day. I can quote some outstanding young people. However in today's world good parents can be 'fooled' by seemingly OK kids. You may not know their friends, even if you think you do. You may have given them the parental talk and feel good about it because you heard it but they heard what Charley Brown and his friends heard - waah, waah, waah.

With little kids, in experimental situations, we've seen many kids given the don't talk, etc. Eddie Eagle presentations and immediately play with guns when left alone.

I will opine that allowing kids access to unsupervised guns and ammo is a big mistake. Should parents be culpable legally if they don't take reasonable precautions - I'm ok with that. Spare me the angle grinder, oxyacetylene torch, the kids roofied your Chardonnay, etc. Special circumstances can be extenuating circumstances. For instance, in Bastrop - after their fires, parents went to get supplies for their damaged property. They left their 17 year old daughter with a holstered pistol and looter arrived. They challenged her that she wouldn't use the gun but she said to try her. They left. That is different from leaving an unlocked gun and ammo around.

Not all kids are stable or listen. Even if stable, short term pressures can overwhelm their cognitive control (spare the frontal lobe lecture). Thus, gunproofing is BS. There is no guarantee because you were a good kid. If you were a bad kid and killed someone, you wouldn't be posting here.


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The school is trying desperately to cover up and avoid liability, charges, job loss. The counselors now say they saw nothing to be concerned about. From working in education and seeing the response to threat, they didn't act because it was a hassle, the parents would sue them, usually nothing happens - so why act. It wasn't a reasoned decision but just avoiding filling out the forms and getting yelled at. No responsible professional would read the notes and not pursue it more thoroughly.

I know from personal experience, administrations when seeing a threat will/can try to ignore it and blame you for not accepting that advice.