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Thread: 9mm in a .38

  1. #11
    I tried 9mm bullets in .38 Special and could not get the bullets snug in the cases, even with no expander.

    Ed Harris once did a piece on 9mm bullets in .38 Special (and vice versa, which works fine) and concluded that he needed a special order tight neck sizing die to get good bullet pull on the 9mms. He also reported that a full charge .357 Magnum load would blow up some of the 9mm bullets of the day.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  2. #12
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    I tried 9mm bullets in .38 Special and could not get the bullets snug in the cases, even with no expander.

    Ed Harris once did a piece on 9mm bullets in .38 Special (and vice versa, which works fine) and concluded that he needed a special order tight neck sizing die to get good bullet pull on the 9mms. He also reported that a full charge .357 Magnum load would blow up some of the 9mm bullets of the day.
    Good to know. Thanks

  3. #13
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Looks like I even have some usable data for the 231 I've got on hand too.
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    Not sure why they call 17,700 CUP max though

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    I tried 9mm bullets in .38 Special and could not get the bullets snug in the cases, even with no expander.
    I had forgotten about that. Some brass worked better than others. Fed nickle was bad.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    Wasn't the federal 147gr +p+ a .355 bullet?
    The 147 gr. 38 Special Hydra-Shok was different from the 9mm version which did not have a cannelure.

    The FBI initially experimented with loading 9mm bullets in 38 cases, but Federal made a .357 bullet with cannelure for actual issued duty ammo.

    The cannelure seems to have helped with barrier penetration.

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...bi-ammo-tests/

  6. #16
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velo Dog View Post
    The 147 gr. 38 Special Hydra-Shok was different from the 9mm version which did not have a cannelure.

    The FBI initially experimented with loading 9mm bullets in 38 cases, but Federal made a .357 bullet with cannelure for actual issued duty ammo.

    The cannelure seems to have helped with barrier penetration.

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...bi-ammo-tests/
    Thanks for that.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    Not sure why they call 17,700 CUP max though
    That is the pressure for that particular combo, in their testing, of those components, at their listed max charge, not the specification for .38 Special. IE: the pressure they measured in testing of their listed max load.

    I understand your reasoning for pursuing this idea, and the thoughts have occurred to me as well. I suspect if the demand was there, you'd see some of the more modern 9mm bullets adapted for .38 or .357 use... but the demand just isn't there I guess. The closest things to a modern .38 JHP load to date, IMHO: Winchester 130gr bonded bullet, the 135gr Speer Gold Dot bullet, and the Federal 130gr HST (which seems like a flop, IMHO). I was excited about the HST load when I first heard about it, but the unconventional "wadcutter" style loading seems to have turned some folks off of it, me included. I'd have preferred to see a more conventional HST bullet in .38. The new .38 Punch load seems close. I've not yet been tempted to try it though.

  8. #18
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WDR View Post
    That is the pressure for that particular combo, in their testing, of those components, at their listed max charge, not the specification for .38 Special. IE: the pressure they measured in testing of their listed max load.

    I understand your reasoning for pursuing this idea, and the thoughts have occurred to me as well. I suspect if the demand was there, you'd see some of the more modern 9mm bullets adapted for .38 or .357 use... but the demand just isn't there I guess. The closest things to a modern .38 JHP load to date, IMHO: Winchester 130gr bonded bullet, the 135gr Speer Gold Dot bullet, and the Federal 130gr HST (which seems like a flop, IMHO). I was excited about the HST load when I first heard about it, but the unconventional "wadcutter" style loading seems to have turned some folks off of it, me included. I'd have preferred to see a more conventional HST bullet in .38. The new .38 Punch load seems close. I've not yet been tempted to try it though.
    I get why companies don't develop new carry ammo for revolvers. I really do. I'm also very content with XTPs in the .357 as I think they do very well.

    I tried earlier this year with XTPs in the .38 hoping to get it up to 1150ish but topped out at 1kfps which I just don't think is fast enough for reliable expansion.

    The Winchester and speer bullets seem to be the best bet for the .38 but I just think the .38 has more potential. I'm perfectly content carrying .357s or hardcast swc in a .38 but when I saw these for sale I thought it might be fun to see what I can do.

  9. #19
    .38 Special is just, frankly, a marginal cartridge. It works fairly well from service size guns, but snubbys suffer... velocity just isn't there. You can hot-rod .38, but you'll be crossing into Elmer Keith experimental territory. Nothing wrong with that, if you're willing to deal with things like less than perfect neck tension, lack of crimp grooves, odd bore/throat/forcing cone bullet sizing issues etc. That +P+ 147gr Federal HydraShok load came about from a similar process of what we are thinking. It cost +P+ pressures/issues to get there, even with "proper" sized bullets and added cannelures.

    It's a 100 year old revolver cartridge, that has been hotrodded before. Nothing wrong with doing that, but I'll be surprised if you find some secret sauce that no one else has. That said... experimenting is fun sometimes. Being able to load your own, the way you want them, is part of the allure of reloading. I totally get it... I have some 147gr HST pulls I bought forever ago, and I have been tempted at times to try exactly what you want to do. I'm not trying to talk you out of it. Rock on man.

  10. #20
    For some reason I seem to remember that the original Super Vel revlover bullets bullets were .355, with an applied cannelure for crimping, and the samples I've seen showed a pretty deep cannelure, and the bullets I had access to measured about .358 just below the cannelure, and .355ish above it. I always felt the original Super Vel ammo was seriously lacking in accuracy past bad-breath distances, but their performance was quite remarkable for the era. Was that really over 40 years ago?

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