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Thread: Leg Locks don't work

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Sal Picante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ford.304 View Post
    I think one other aspect of heel hooks in self defense is the same reason they are/were seen as "bad" or "dangerous" in the gym -- there isn't as big of an "this hurts, so I want to stop" factor before you do damage. If I get a heel hook on someone who doesn't train and I *don't* want to actually rip their knee apart, I'm going to have to explain them what's going to happen if I finish it (I've seen video of this working once... but man, it took some explaining). If I have a kimura grip I can just pull on it a little and they get my point. I've also seen too many guys tough their way out of toe holds in competition to think someone who is serious about doing harm is going to care.
    We had issues in the gym recently: blue belt with decent enough BJJ was just ankle locking and heel hooking with too much intent on lower blue belt and white belts. Coach had a talk, chewed him out, etc. He was on thin ice.

    He's gotten better about stuff, but we only let him roll with upper belts now, mostly so he can learn defense/manage ego.

  2. #12
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    I feel like this clip is relevant. You can be Garry Tonon, one of the best leglock artists in the world, and a guy like Than Le (who is a brown belt under Ryan Hall) with the knowledge to defend and serious knockout power, can clip you pretty badly.

    It probably doesn't change the fact that I still like to train some leg locks and leg entanglements. As a way of getting to a better position when you have an opponent standing over you, I think leg entangling guards like Single Leg X, X guard etc, have some value. I guess the ones I'd probably desperately avoid in a situation involving strikes would be a lot of the stuff like De La Riva guard, K guard or the Reverse DLR, which seem to involve a lot of inverting at the highest levels anyways.

  3. #13
    Garryís a bad dude, he just really made one mistake there that cost him the fight. If he would have gotten Leís hips on the ground prior to going for the break, that fight may have gone another way. Palhares basically made a career of pulling guard and going for a reap for heel exposure, but he was so massive, strong, and turned so hard into the reap that his opponent had to follow his hips and that put them on the ground. From there itís harder to defend and you canít drop bombs like when youíre standing over someone.

    Position before submission. Even with the dark art of leg locks.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Garryís a bad dude, he just really made one mistake there that cost him the fight. If he would have gotten Leís hips on the ground prior to going for the break, that fight may have gone another way. Palhares basically made a career of pulling guard and going for a reap for heel exposure, but he was so massive, strong, and turned so hard into the reap that his opponent had to follow his hips and that put them on the ground. From there itís harder to defend and you canít drop bombs like when youíre standing over someone.

    Position before submission. Even with the dark art of leg locks.
    Quoted for truth. Can't cheat the gods of position. It's why you really don't see a lot of those goof ass bottom side control submissions in MMA fights

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  5. #15
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    Just reviving this thread to further point out...

    You can utterly destroy a limb or joint without ending the fight.

    https://youtu.be/DroK_yRvLH8

    Mikey pretty much ruined this dude's leg. Something like a torn meniscus, torn ACL, torn LCL and broken ankle. It's likely this guy will need 12 months to fully recover, yet he didn't tap.

    I'm a big fan of wrestling control or strangles for self defense. Fully disabling someone for punching me strikes me as a huge overreaction.





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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Just reviving this thread to further point out...

    You can utterly destroy a limb or joint without ending the fight.

    https://youtu.be/DroK_yRvLH8

    Mikey pretty much ruined this dude's leg. Something like a torn meniscus, torn ACL, torn LCL and broken ankle. It's likely this guy will need 12 months to fully recover, yet he didn't tap.

    I'm a big fan of wrestling control or strangles for self defense. Fully disabling someone for punching me strikes me as a huge overreaction.


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    Iíve been getting back into BJJ over the last 6-8 months after about 5 years off, and Iíve been absolutely loving the concept of ďpinningĒ people as part of passing/gaining position/submitting. Iíve got a judo and wrestling background, and am just now starting to conceptualize the idea of pinning someoneís hips while passing half guard, or pinning the head/shoulders while transitioning from a position like reverse scarf hold into north south.

    I guess the concept of position before submission is really starting to sink in for me.

  7. #17
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Just reviving this thread to further point out...

    You can utterly destroy a limb or joint without ending the fight.

    https://youtu.be/DroK_yRvLH8

    Mikey pretty much ruined this dude's leg. Something like a torn meniscus, torn ACL, torn LCL and broken ankle. It's likely this guy will need 12 months to fully recover, yet he didn't tap.

    I'm a big fan of wrestling control or strangles for self defense. Fully disabling someone for punching me strikes me as a huge overreaction.


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    I watched this fight real time and the Mongolian dude should have tapped to save his leg. But what it told me, quickly, about the whole thing is, you can't count on disabling a limb to take the fight out of a dedicated opponent (we should have all known this). That guy fought back for basically 10 minutes. Ten minutes in a fight is a lifetime anywhere outside of a ring. If Mikey had let that guy up and they had gone back to standing, he probably would have limped his way around the ring and continued to grapple until a choke was successful.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I watched this fight real time and the Mongolian dude should have tapped to save his leg. But what it told me, quickly, about the whole thing is, you can't count on disabling a limb to take the fight out of a dedicated opponent (we should have all known this). That guy fought back for basically 10 minutes. Ten minutes in a fight is a lifetime anywhere outside of a ring. If Mikey had let that guy up and they had gone back to standing, he probably would have limped his way around the ring and continued to grapple until a choke was successful.
    Absolutely.

    Like if this is a situation where serious damage is warranted, I can understand wrecking every limb on your way to the neck...after all they'll have a hard time fighting a stand up game with multiple debilitating injuries...

    But what situation is actually gonna warrant that?

    I like single leg x guard quite a bit when strikes are involved and Craig Douglas showed a very cool use of a leg reap for armed defense earlier in this thread...but ruining someone's leg like that in self defense had better have a real strong justification that is either lethal force or damned close...because putting someone in crutches for a year ain't gonna look great to a jury at my trial for aggravated assault.

    Am I way off base here in thinking that wrestling and boxing (and really like a handful of BJJ techniques) are really The Answer for self defense?

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  9. #19
    Every technique is a means to an end. "How this (technique, training method, tool, etc.) fits into the likely set of tactical situations I'll find myself in" is a much more relevant question to ask yourself to evaluate things.

    EDIT; A submission is a concession that happens among friends. Disabling that limb is what happens to your enemies. A break is an effective means to compel concession, but that is not guaranteed.

    My $0.00002
    Last edited by JohnVee; 01-24-2023 at 10:02 AM.

  10. #20
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Absolutely.

    Like if this is a situation where serious damage is warranted, I can understand wrecking every limb on your way to the neck...after all they'll have a hard time fighting a stand up game with multiple debilitating injuries...

    But what situation is actually gonna warrant that?

    I like single leg x guard quite a bit when strikes are involved and Craig Douglas showed a very cool use of a leg reap for armed defense earlier in this thread...but ruining someone's leg like that in self defense had better have a real strong justification that is either lethal force or damned close...because putting someone in crutches for a year ain't gonna look great to a jury at my trial for aggravated assault.

    Am I way off base here in thinking that wrestling and boxing (and really like a handful of BJJ techniques) are really The Answer for self defense?

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    Spitballing and it might be relevant it might not, I could argue it both ways.

    Your particular employment gives you some insight into how debilitating an injury like destroying a meniscus, ACL, LCL, and ankle might be in the long term.

    But that same kind of expertise is what would have you removed from being a juror at a trial for aggravated assault.

    In other words, I -think- your expertise colors your view here. So, I'd bear that in mind.

    Because we also both know without imaging and an informed medical opinion, you can't know how hard you hurt that guy you put in a leg lock on the street. You might have a sense of it, you know how bad/debilitating it could be, you might know how bad it is - after the fact. But when you have homey wrapped up in a leg lock, at a Green Line L-Station after taking the Missus to the see the Opera, and homey tried to stick you with a dirty needle - you can't be worried about, "Will this dude walk after this?"

    Because that dude made his decisions that led him up to that point. Then he demanded your input on his overall decision making. I would argue you're both not at liberty to deny him that input and not at liberty to limit your input to be only constructive criticism.

    As to why you might have him in a leglock vs armbar or choke - you play the hand you're dealt and maybe that means putting him in a leg lock and holding him there until PD shows up is the best you've got.

    Wrestling, Boxing, and Jits in combo is definitely probably "the" solution. And there is no coincidence that you'll find elements of all three in the Shivworks curriculum.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVee
    EDIT; A submission is a concession that happens among friends. Disabling that limb is what happens to your enemies. A break is an effective means to compel concession, but that is not guaranteed.

    My $0.00002
    I like this thought. I think it's really good to draw that distinction.

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