10mm defensive loads

[HCM]

If that was the case, every cop in the country would have FMJs in their duty guns. The fact that they do not speaks volumes.

Words mean things - adequate penetration (12-18”) is not over penetration.

Cops don’t carry FMJ but they do all carry bonded bullets or their functional equivalents.

Maybe I was tagged in this thread because I’ve seen people and animals shot with .40 cal JHPs including some at 10mm velocities and maybe I’m a 13 year old girl in mom’s basement- it’s the Internet you get what you pay for.

IME shot placement and adequate penetration to reach vital structures are the primary factors in terminal effects.
Slightly more or less expansion is inconsequential, unless it’s the difference between say nicking an artery or not but, of course, that comes back to … shot placement and penetrating adequately to reach said artery,

[El Cid]

I think of the .40 S&W and 10mm, about like .44 special and .44 magnum. JHP defensive loads do just fine, and maybe even better, out of the .40 and .44 special, compared to 10mm and .44 magnum. The 10mm and .44 magnum shine where more velocity allows a flatter trajectory or more ability to punch through a hard target with a penetrator type bullet. Of course for the kind of dudes that believe power factor for defensive loads starts at 200, and more is better, the 10mm may give a warm feeling.

Concur. The only reason I have a 10mm is for those times away from civilization when there are 4 legged critters higher than me on the food chain. If I had to use that gun in town I’d just swap to a mag of Gold Dots or some quality ammo.

[Rick R]

Of course for the kind of dudes that believe power factor for defensive loads starts at 200, and more is better, the 10mm may give a warm feeling.

Having shot road injured deer with .357, 9mm, .40, .45 and 10mm AND shot demo cars on our range with all the above the 10mm does indeed give me the warm fuzzies. The 155gr - 165gr .40S&W wasn’t bad either. I wish Speer would factory load 10mm rounds with a 180gr GD at 1,200ish fps for my kind of dude.

[GJM]

Having shot road injured deer with .357, 9mm, .40, .45 and 10mm AND shot demo cars on our range with all the above the 10mm does indeed give me the warm fuzzies. The 155gr - 165gr .40S&W wasn’t bad either. I wish Speer would factory load 10mm rounds with a 180gr GD at 1,200ish fps for my kind of dude.

Sounds like you want an equivalent to the factory Hornady 180 XTP load, but with a modern design JHP bullet. How about the 175 grain at 1,160 Critical Duty load?

[JCN]

Sounds like you want an equivalent to the factory Hornady 180 XTP load, but with a modern design JHP bullet. How about the 175 grain at 1,160 Critical Duty load?

https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-a...low-point.html

Underwood makes a 180gr Gold Dot loaded 10mm rated at 1300 fps.

It’s pretty badass.

I know people Pooh Pooh boutique bullets but 100 grain Xtreme Defenders go through IIIA.

[Rick R]

Sounds like you want an equivalent to the factory Hornady 180 XTP load, but with a modern design JHP bullet. How about the 175 grain at 1,160 Critical Duty load?

I’m sure the Critical Duty is as good as the Silvertip load that “Bang! Flopped” deer quite well. What I want is a bonded bullet and the Gold Dot is sub 1 1/2” accurate at 25 yards out of my SR1911 with my handloads. The Speer 200gr GD loading was kind of a yawner at a bit over 1,000fps. I find Speer’s lack of faith in their 180gr bullet to be disturbing.

The two reasons that we transitioned away from 10mm was S&W discontinued the 1006 and most of the available ammo was the FBI “Lite” load.

[BBMW]

I don't want to turn this into a generalized stopping power thread. That's been hashed to death. Having said that, nothing tops placement, agreed. The flip side is that anyone who thinks that in a balls out shootout that they can guarantee perfect placement is kidding themselves. You have to take the shots you're presented with, get them on target as quickly as possible (before the BG does that to you), and hope your bullets get the job done. I'm also not arguing that adequate penetration is not necessary, but once you get that, you want to get a big a wound cavity as possible, creating as much bleeding as possible. That's where expansion comes in

I will point out that the bullet in the video I posted at the start of this thread was bonded, and it almost peeled back to the point of the jacket ripping off (which is really unusual for a bonded bullet.)

Here's the same bullet, in a test done by the same amateur tester, in the same media, in a .40 loading going more than 300 f/s slower. It had adequate penetration, by your, and any scientific standards. Is this round going to be any less effective than the 10mm in the video in the original post? Might it be more effective?

Words mean things - adequate penetration (12-18”) is not over penetration.

Cops don’t carry FMJ but they do all carry bonded bullets or their functional equivalents.

Maybe I was tagged in this thread because I’ve seen people and animals shot with .40 cal JHPs including some at 10mm velocities and maybe I’m a 13 year old girl in mom’s basement- it’s the Internet you get what you pay for.

IME shot placement and adequate penetration to reach vital structures are the primary factors in terminal effects.
Slightly more or less expansion is inconsequential, unless it’s the difference between say nicking an artery or not but, of course, that comes back to … shot placement and penetrating adequately to reach said artery,

[WDR]

I think the hype around 10mm for anti-personnel use is... mostly hype. It's still a handgun cartridge, not a death ray. It certainly CAN be effective with good loads/bullets. It can also end up being .40 Long Rifle and not doing a whole lot more than .40 Short (and Weak)... Then when folks start trying to make it a .40 Magnum, it takes away usefulness in other ways (reliability, shootability).

If I was going to carry a 10mm for personal defense against people, I'd stuff it with either HST or Gold Dot 200gr load, and drive on, feeling plenty well armed. The 175gr Silvertip, and the 175 Critical Duty would be my next choices.

The 200gr loads are optimized for defense use, not optimized to make 10mm a Magnum Death Ray.

[HCM]

I think a 135-155gr at honest 1200 FPS with modern bullets would be the bee’s knees. IIRC that’s doable in a .40 much less 10mm. I think Border Patrol had that round for awhile but it ate up guns quickly. I never heard a lot about effectiveness, but a 124 9mm at 1200 seems to be the go-to round for lots of agencies.

Perhaps @HCM could opine on how something in that range would work.

I don't want to turn this into a generalized stopping power thread. That's been hashed to death. Having said that, nothing tops placement, agreed. The flip side is that anyone who thinks that in a balls out shootout that they can guarantee perfect placement is kidding themselves. You have to take the shots you're presented with, get them on target as quickly as possible (before the BG does that to you), and hope your bullets get the job done. I'm also not arguing that adequate penetration is not necessary, but once you get that, you want to get a big a wound cavity as possible, creating as much bleeding as possible. That's where expansion comes in

I will point out that the bullet in the video I posted at the start of this thread was bonded, and it almost peeled back to the point of the jacket ripping off (which is really unusual for a bonded bullet.)

Here's the same bullet, in a test done by the same amateur tester, in the same media, in a .40 loading going more than 300 f/s slower. It had adequate penetration, by your, and any scientific standards. Is this round going to be any less effective than the 10mm in the video in the original post? Might it be more effective?

For fighting people ? I'd prefer the "slower" 40 over the 10mm. I'd argue the 40 is more effective but not for reasons related to bullet performance. The "slower" round is going to allow better shot to shot times and better shot placement on all rounds subsequent to the first. Fighting is more than just shooting.

For the same reasons I'd take "slower" 180 grain 40 over the 135 / 155 grain screamers. most of the agencies that started with those wound up going to 180 grain or 165 grain and I know some very large agencies using 165 which stepped down velocity of their 165 grain ammo for the same reasons.

The 10mm might come into play when you need to break through thick bone with something handy enough to keep on your person. The stereotypical "penetrate a bear skull" though far more people are killed by cattle than bears.

Of course the 40 with something like Lehigh Defense penetrator ammo can perform the same function.

[GJM]

When I moved to Alaska in 2002, pretty much all the pilots (and “pilot” describes most people in the Bush, since you mostly have to fly to get out in the field) were carrying a Smith 629 four inch or Mountain revolver. Later, when the Scandium 329 came out, that became the sidearm of choice. In the last ten years or so, the Glock 20 became the pilot’s go to sidearm. The funny thing, is when I ask them what ammo they are carrying, they get a funny look and usually answer “10mm.” Those that do have some penetrating ammo invariably answer my question as to how many rounds they tested in their pistol, with “the extra ones beyond the 15 that went into the magazine.”

As an aside, you can generally bet that someone carrying a .500 Smith is from lower 48, and by afternoon that revolver and shoulder holster is usually draped over an ATV, or a nearby tree, because the rig weighs so much.