10mm defensive loads

[Navin Johnson]

We have three Interstate highways and one of our State “Corridors” running thru our county. Our deputies shoot a lot of injured deer. Some are still up and mobile enough to preclude an easy CNS shot. As the guy who purchased/issued ammunition when our deputies shot a deer they came to me for replacement ammo. From talking with them and shooting deer myself, all the issued cartridges worked with brain shots. I drove up on a younger female deputy exactly when she double tapped a doe thru the head with her 1006, so training to shoot until they go down apparently stuck with her.

It was the more mobile deer requiring body shots where the .357, 9mm and even .45acp were less effective. The 10mm (and .40 155/165gr loads) usually required one shot. Late one night I was called to an accident scene where the driver pointed to a nice 8 point buck limping across a field 50 yards from the scene. I walked over to catch it at probably 100 yards out and put a single 10mm XTP behind its shoulder from @20 yards away. When I got back to my car I found a police officer who informed me that his city had just annexed the crash scene that week and thanked me for shooting the deer because their 9mm guns were embarrassing on deer.

They all work with headshots, some jurisdictions use suppressed .22 rifles for just that, it’s when the animal is up and mobile and full of adrenaline that has led me to prefer the 10mm over the 9mm or even the .45acp. We know which orifice opinions resemble, but my experience has led me to like the 10mm. I’m not trying to sell everyone on 10mm, I just wish Speer would load their 180gr GD to 1,250fps for those of us who do.

The .357 above was that Mag. or Sig? And if Mag. what load?

Thanks

[Rick R]

The .357 above was that Mag. or Sig? And if Mag. what load?

Thanks

.357 Magnum, the two loads I remember being issued were 125gr Remington jhp and the Winchester 145gr (?) Silvertip.
The Silvertip was popular with the younger deputies who would leave a “Silver Bullet” after scoring with the ladies. Being married I did not partake with such sport.

We transitioned away from the S&W 4” 686 and 2 3/4” 66 guns during my first three years. I think the state of training at that time might have been more at fault than the cartridge and/or loadings.

[jellydonut]

Easy — Brenneke Classic Magnum slug in a quality semi auto shotgun.

Obviously, yes, the primary would be a .30-06 and the secondary would be a 12 gauge. The 10mm would be a tertiary. I'd still like to have it loaded with a suitable round.

[Navin Johnson]

My guess is the m&p will have the same issues as others....It will run on factory loads (witch are for sissys and sailors of coarse) and will require recoil and mag spring changes to run with "hammer of the gods" 10's at 100-150 fps faster.

[BBMW]

Are your hammer of the gods loads above SAAMI maximum? If not, they shouldn't require spring changes. And are they even factory loads, or DIY?

My guess is the m&p will have the same issues as others....It will run on factory loads (witch are for sissys and sailors of coarse) and will require recoil and mag spring changes to run with "hammer of the gods" 10's at 100-150 fps faster.

[Navin Johnson]

Are your hammer of the gods loads above SAAMI maximum? If not, they shouldn't require spring changes. And are they even factory loads, or DIY?

I don't own a 10 but I've always kind of wanted one.

When one reads about a 10 it seems like those that have them complain that the factory loadings are powder puffs so they want buffalo bore or underwood type loadings that are supposed to be what a true 10 mm is. (Whatever that means)

Those more powerful loadings tend to have function problems unless recoil and magazine springs are changed and it probably costs about the price of the gun to properly vet The more powerful ammo. I have read on these boards as well as others about people trying to get Glock 20s to function properly.

I'm not talking about the guys who buy a box of Underwood fill the magazine fire the other five rounds and call it good.

IIRC One of our members turned a HK-45 into a 45 super because of these issues for a field pistol.

So unless Smith & Wesson found a way to broaden the functional window of their 10mm pistol it will likely suffer the same fate. As people try and turn the 10 mm into what it was apparently never meant to be.

[revchuck38]

Are your hammer of the gods loads above SAAMI maximum? If not, they shouldn't require spring changes. And are they even factory loads, or DIY?

I'm pretty sure the original loads were the ones that SAAMI used for pressure limits. IIRC, they were 180s at about 1250 fps. When the FBI adopted the 10mm, their loading was a 180 at 950-1000 fps; when the .40 S&W came about that was the spec they aimed for. I have no idea what the current factory offerings run in terms of velocity.

[Rick R]

I'm pretty sure the original loads were the ones that SAAMI used for pressure limits. IIRC, they were 180s at about 1250 fps. When the FBI adopted the 10mm, their loading was a 180 at 950-1000 fps; when the .40 S&W came about that was the spec they aimed for. I have no idea what the current factory offerings run in terms of velocity.

After the “failure” of a 9mm Silvertip in the Miami shootout the FBI huddled up, held meetings and eventually adopted the S&W 10xx with a SIGish decocker and 4 1/2” (?) barrel with full bore 180gr @ 1,250fps loads. The guns proved to be problematic and recoil was more than non-gun oriented agents were comfortable with. As a partial fix they spec’d and adopted the “FBI load” which was a 180gr jhp @ 950fps and proclaimed it to be “just as good”. It was easier to shoot, I attended a week long class at FLETC and smoked their qual course every day with my issue 5” 1006 using their ammo.

The engineers at S&W did their engineering headspace stuff and said “if all you want is a .40” 180gr bullet at 950fps we can shorten the cartridge and put it in a 9mm size gun”. That gave the FBI a route away from the boat anchor 10xx series guns that occasionally had to be returned to the mothership loaded because the decocker dingus decided to lock the slide shut tighter than Ft Knox. The .40S&W was born and became king of the hill, until…

The FBI still had those pesky attorney/accountant/non-gun centric agents who had trouble qualifying with their .40S&W guns so a few years ago they pronounced bullet science to have progressed to a point that the 9mm was now a death ray and quite sufficient for LE use. Everyone jumped on that bandwagon to the point 9mm ammo has become scarce.

I’m sure at some point the .32acp or 5.7mm with new powders and bullets will become the “in thing”.

[revchuck38]

At some point, the .40 S&W went from "40 Short & Weak" to "40 Snap & Whip" for the same loading. But we're drifting here...

[GJM]

The way to reliably shoot wide meplat 10mm loads is in a Smith revolver, but then you might as well shoot .44 magnums for field use.