10mm defensive loads

[Clusterfrack]

@Navin Johnson, I’m guessing you’re referring to my thread about mods to my G20 to reliably shoot full power wide meplat loads? While it required a few cheap aftermarket parts, it’s not a major change to the gun. I’m happy with the results.

[Rick R]

The way to reliably shoot wide meplat 10mm loads is in a Smith revolver, but then you might as well shoot .44 magnums for field use.

My 10mm SR1911 feeds 200gr WFN (.300” meplat) just fine. Those same rounds moonclipped for my GP-100 are like herding cats to get in the chambers. But they shoot accurately and do penetrate like a .44.

[El Cid]

After the “failure” of a 9mm Silvertip in the Miami shootout the FBI huddled up, held meetings and eventually adopted the S&W 10xx with a SIGish decocker and 4 1/2” (?) barrel with full bore 180gr @ 1,250fps loads. The guns proved to be problematic and recoil was more than non-gun oriented agents were comfortable with. As a partial fix they spec’d and adopted the “FBI load” which was a 180gr jhp @ 950fps and proclaimed it to be “just as good”. It was easier to shoot, I attended a week long class at FLETC and smoked their qual course every day with my issue 5” 1006 using their ammo.

The engineers at S&W did their engineering headspace stuff and said “if all you want is a .40” 180gr bullet at 950fps we can shorten the cartridge and put it in a 9mm size gun”. That gave the FBI a route away from the boat anchor 10xx series guns that occasionally had to be returned to the mothership loaded because the decocker dingus decided to lock the slide shut tighter than Ft Knox. The .40S&W was born and became king of the hill, until…

The FBI still had those pesky attorney/accountant/non-gun centric agents who had trouble qualifying with their .40S&W guns so a few years ago they pronounced bullet science to have progressed to a point that the 9mm was now a death ray and quite sufficient for LE use. Everyone jumped on that bandwagon to the point 9mm ammo has become scarce.

I’m sure at some point the .32acp or 5.7mm with new powders and bullets will become the “in thing”.

I was on board until you jumped the shark with your last paragraph of Internet lore and nonsense.

[Joe in PNG]

The way to reliably shoot wide meplat 10mm loads is in a Smith revolver, but then you might as well shoot .44 magnums for field use.

.41 mag?

[BBMW]

Yes, the FBI speced a downloaded version of 10mm for their deployment. But I just checked the Federal and Winchester current lines. Both have 180 grain hollowpoint loads with MVs > 1200 f/s. Federal has 200 grain loads with MVs >1100 f/s. These do not seem wimpy. I'd be perfectly happy using these for defensive purposes.

I'm pretty sure the original loads were the ones that SAAMI used for pressure limits. IIRC, they were 180s at about 1250 fps. When the FBI adopted the 10mm, their loading was a 180 at 950-1000 fps; when the .40 S&W came about that was the spec they aimed for. I have no idea what the current factory offerings run in terms of velocity.

[Will Fennell]

We have three Interstate highways and one of our State “Corridors” running thru our county. Our deputies shoot a lot of injured deer. Some are still up and mobile enough to preclude an easy CNS shot. As the guy who purchased/issued ammunition when our deputies shot a deer they came to me for replacement ammo. From talking with them and shooting deer myself, all the issued cartridges worked with brain shots. I drove up on a younger female deputy exactly when she double tapped a doe thru the head with her 1006, so training to shoot until they go down apparently stuck with her.

It was the more mobile deer requiring body shots where the .357, 9mm and even .45acp were less effective. The 10mm (and .40 155/165gr loads) usually required one shot. Late one night I was called to an accident scene where the driver pointed to a nice 8 point buck limping across a field 50 yards from the scene. I walked over to catch it at probably 100 yards out and put a single 10mm XTP behind its shoulder from @20 yards away. When I got back to my car I found a police officer who informed me that his city had just annexed the crash scene that week and thanked me for shooting the deer because their 9mm guns were embarrassing on deer.

They all work with headshots, some jurisdictions use suppressed .22 rifles for just that, it’s when the animal is up and mobile and full of adrenaline that has led me to prefer the 10mm over the 9mm or even the .45acp. We know which orifice opinions resemble, but my experience has led me to like the 10mm. I’m not trying to sell everyone on 10mm, I just wish Speer would load their 180gr GD to 1,250fps for those of us who do.

Rick,
I've killed a lot of deer and hogs with 10mm. I've had great results with 180 and 200 gr XTP's loaded at 'full velocity'. I've actually been pretty pleased with 155 xtp's. I have only used a 180 gr Gold dot(loaded to 1250) once, and while it gave GREAT expansion, it didn't penetrate well at all. Sample of 1, but it was under 10" on a relatively small doe, and didn't exit. This season I plan to try the new 200 gr Fusion load, and possibly some Barnes and/or Lehigh monolithic bullets.

YMMV.

Best,

Will

[Dov]

Rick,
I've killed a lot of deer and hogs with 10mm. I've had great results with 180 and 200 gr XTP's loaded at 'full velocity'. I've actually been pretty pleased with 155 xtp's. I have only used a 180 gr Gold dot(loaded to 1250) once, and while it gave GREAT expansion, it didn't penetrate well at all. Sample of 1, but it was under 10" on a relatively small doe, and didn't exit. This season I plan to try the new 200 gr Fusion load, and possibly some Barnes and/or Lehigh monolithic bullets.

YMMV.

Best,

Will

That matches what several people I've talked to that are 10mm hunting enthusiasts have said, they really like Hornady 180 &/or 200 grain XTP bullets.

Some like one or the other better some like both.

IIRC one said he got more than foot of penetration with 200 XTP in hog spine.

[Oldherkpilot]

At some point, the .40 S&W went from "40 Short & Weak" to "40 Snap & Whip" for the same loading. But we're drifting here...

The name has been changed to protect the old, infirm and arthritic among us.😁

[Bergeron]

I've posted this a couple of times now, but I really doubt anyone who is all ".40 Short & Weak" is really shooting that much factory 10mm.

Most factory 10mm is great for bowling pins or hunting, and I'm sure it's fine for defensive stuff, but finding quality .40-level loads is actually hard. Shooting USPSA matches with 200+ PF loads is fun a couple of times, but can become tedious when you have to start doing it because the less powerful loads aren't available.

.40 performance with modern ammo is fine, and I'd be just as happy as I can be if finding that stuff, both as hollowpoint defensive and ball in 10mm, was easy. I like the hard and heavy stuff, but that doesn't mean that I don't also like sweetness and light out of the same gun.

And I should reload, and I acknowledge that. Maybe Summer 2023, if everything else can go to plan.

As a counterpoint, I would love to see what the stupid-heavy stuff is like out of PCC.

[JTMcC]

Rick,
I've killed a lot of deer and hogs with 10mm. I've had great results with 180 and 200 gr XTP's loaded at 'full velocity'. I've actually been pretty pleased with 155 xtp's. I have only used a 180 gr Gold dot(loaded to 1250) once, and while it gave GREAT expansion, it didn't penetrate well at all. Sample of 1, but it was under 10" on a relatively small doe, and didn't exit. This season I plan to try the new 200 gr Fusion load, and possibly some Barnes and/or Lehigh monolithic bullets.

YMMV.

Best,

Will

I'd love to hear how the Fusion works for you in game.
Especially compared to the XTP's.