Originally Posted by
TCinVA
An established option with a long history and many samples out in the wild being used is a good first step. That helps the potential problems to be known quantities going in.
Correct. Because it is a manually operated weapon you can check the function of the gun using dummy shells and then check the function of ammo in the gun at the range with a lower round count. The less common the pump gun, though, the more live fire you want to do with the gun. Some of these Turkish and Chinese import guns flooding the market should be treated with severe skepticism. But the good news is that they usually break really, really early.
Someone came to class with a Turkish made box-fed bullpup pump gun. I was astonished to see a gun that seemed to be designed around fitting as many bad design ideas as possible into a single gun. That gun didn't even get 25 shells downrange before the pump mechanism had ripped the threads off of fasteners and broken metal.
I'd agree. Run it to your comfort level. When I first got the 1301 I was careful in how I evaluated it. Owning two now and having had literally about a hundred more show up to class since then, I wouldn't need many rounds to trust one with my defensive ammunition of choice.
A friend just bought a new 1301 Friday. We're going to go to the range and shoot 100 birdshot shells through it just to verify function and break in the springs. Then we're going to zero it for FFC buckshot and shoot some Tru-Ball slugs through it to ensure they hit close enough to the buckshot's POA to be an appropriate go-to slug.
That will be sufficient vetting of that gun, IMO. He's at an advantage to most because I have a lot of trigger time on the 1301 and I've shot dozens of them so if something's off, I'm likely to notice it right away. My prior experience with the 1301 tells me it will probably be just fine out of the box. If it's not, it will probably be the shell stop that is out of adjustment and needs a little TLC at the factory to get running properly. That sort of problem will manifest regardless of what ammo the gun is using.
Vetting a Benelli M4 would look different because they are much picker about what they feed. I'd need more rounds and observation of the gun using low recoil loads to ensure they work correctly in the gun and to ensure that recoil mitigation doesn't choke the gun...and that has to be tested in the hands of the shooter. The fact that it works for me doesn't mean it's going to behave the same in the hands of the 6'4" 250 pound former pro athlete turned sheriff's deputy that's using the gun. I might not be able to generate enough force to stop the action from working reliably. He maybe does...so that has to be factored in.
Gas guns are less concerned about that than recoil operated guns, but I've seen gas guns that choke when someone uses recoil mitigation on them as well.
Now if we're talking some some of these box-magazine fed Turkish semi-autos...oh, who are we kidding. Nobody buying those is doing any serious work with them anyway.
A friend is currently running a Stoeger M3000 to see if it's a suitable budget alternative to the 1301. So far so good. That gun will see probably 500 or more shells with a healthy mix before he calls it good. And it will show up in my classes where people can run it with their ammo, too.
The most common cause of all semi-auto stoppages is ammo. The variations in manufacture of shotgun ammo beggar belief. Some ammo is just made better than others.
If you take a close look at a shell Federal manufactures for defense/duty use, their premium stuff, you'll see that the crimp on the end has a rounded profile to aid in reliable feeding. Cheap stuff has a hard square edge. A gun that is marginal may run the roll-crimped stuff and not the cheaper square crimped stuff.
The most common problems I see in order are:
- Failures to eject
- Failures to extract
- Failures to feed
- Gross user error
Failures to Eject:
Generally failures to eject manifest as the bolt not traveling fully to the rear to eject the spent shell, then closing back with the empty shell in the chamber. This usually doesn't produce a double feed because the bolt doesn't go far enough back to trigger a release of the next shell from the magazine. Sometimes it does and on the guns with a shell cutoff it results in a shell sitting on the lifter while the spent shell is still under the extractor. This is usually the result of ammo that isn't powerful enough to run the gun. I've had people buy light ammo specifically recommended for use only in break action guns on the box and bring it to class to feed their Beretta or Benelli. And that just won't work.
Fixing that is usually as simple as just running the bolt aggressively. Spent shell ejects, new shell on the lifter gets driven into the chamber, happy day. If the bolt hasn't traveled back far enough to kick out the next shell odds are it hasn't cocked the hammer either, so you will have to overcome the hammer spring's pressure to get the next shell to feed. (Pressing the trigger is usually what makes the guns with the shell cutoffs release the next shell onto the lifter)
On the Benellis someone who is letting the gun recoil too much or not enough will rob the bolt of the energy it needs to go through the full path of travel and it will usually result in failures to eject, or result in the bolt partially open with the spent shell still under the extractor. Those, too, usually clear just by running the bolt hard. Then it's time to look at someone's stance, how they are mounting the gun, the pressures they are putting on it, etc.
Failures to Extract:
This usually happens because someone bought a Mossberg semi-auto. They fire the gun and the bolt doesn't budge. At all. It just sits there. Often because they are using Winchester ammunition (no ribbing on the hull) and the chamber itself has issues from the manufacturer and in combo it results in a shell that is practically welded to the walls of the chamber.
Attempting to run the bolt usually results in nothing...so you have to resort to mortaring the gun to get it open. This will get the gun to fire more 9 out of 10 times...but you can bet that you will be mortaring the gun again in fairly short order if you don't at least attempt to switch ammo.
Odds are about 50/50 that within another box of shells you'll mortar the gun and rip through the rim of the case head while the shell stays stuck in the chamber. That will require a cleaning rod or sturdy dowel run down through the muzzle to beat the thing out.
And you spend that time explaining to this person that this is why we don't buy Mossberg semi-autos.
Of course, this can potentially happen to any gun, but so far I've only seen it happen this way with Mossberg semi-autos. That would be a clue.
Failures to Feed:
I classify this category of problem as anything involving the shell coming out of the magazine tube and into the chamber. I see these the least.
Usually when I see them it is the result of user error. In class we talk pointedly about getting shells past the shell stop, but people don't always follow that and sooner or later somebody doesn't push a shell in deep enough and it kicks back on the lifter.
This happens a lot on the Beretta and Benelli shotguns. Not because of the guns themselves, but something about the users makes them try and cut that margin as close as they can. I can hear it happen across the range. In this condition the gun won't allow you to put any more shells in the magazine. Corrective action is to run the bolt. If there's a round already in the chamber, fire that one and it will grab the next shell off the lifter and you can continue loading the magazine.
Sometimes I get a Remington 870 in class that doesn't have the flexi-tab lifter. When someone shallow-loads the magazine on a gun like that it can move both of those old shell stops (there are two in the gun) long enough to let two shells back out of the magazine and on the lifter...and at that point the action is bound up hard. Your only option is to mortar the gun to get it open and then push the forward-most shell back into the magazine. This is a bitch on stilts to accomplish in a timely manner.
Occasionally I see that happen on a semi-auto, but thankfully it's usually easier to clear by just ripping the bolt backwards and then pressing the forward most shell back into the magazine. The first gen 1301's would throw two shells back on the lifter if you pressed the rear of the bolt release, hence the guards from Tau, Beretta, and Aridus to stop that from happening. And the redesigned bolt release from Beretta on the Gen2 guns.
When it isn't user error, failures to feed are generally the result of something mechanical being wrong with the gun.
Worn out magazine springs that aren't pushing new shells out fast enough to keep up with the action of the gun.
Shell stops that aren't adjusted properly and are letting shells spit out too freely or aren't letting shells out reliably.
Ammunition that isn't in spec or the hull of the shell is deformed in some way hanging up in the mag tube or when trying to go into the chamber, etc. A problem with the gun or ammunition will manifest over and over again the same way at about the same point in the feeding process. A good example is the lifter getting stuck halfway through travel because the shells the client had in the gun were too long and hung up on the edge of the mag tube. Etc.
Gross User Error:
They load the shell backwards into the magazine tube.
This usually happens as they pull shells from a dump pouch or a pocket. Ammunition carriage devices that do not keep the shells in a consistent orientation results in people who grab a shell, usually in the middle of a drill, and then they shove it into the gun without ensuring the shiny side is pointed at them.
Sometimes this can be addressed by reaching up into the gun and massaging the shell stop(s) to let the rim go and it will come out. Usually, though, I have to take their gun apart to clear it.
In class I tell people over and over again to use their pocket/pouch/fanny pack/whatever to feed a side saddle or whatever they are using that holds shells consistently because if they don't they are likely to run one into the gun backwards. It usually takes it happening to someone...which stops the class while I try to fix it...for folks to realize the wisdom of that advice.
I know how easy it is to do this because I've damn near done it myself during a demo a couple of times. When you're teaching AND reading body language/facial expression of students AND handling a gun safely AND monitoring the clock AND doing visual check-ins with your co-instructor(s) AND thinking about how to best perform the drill you're about to run it can be really easy to grab that shell out of your pocket backwards and shove it into the gun.
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