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Thread: Used Police 870's for sale

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I think that's mostly because you can get a basic bead sight 18.5-20" Mossberg Maverick 88 Security model for under $200 if you shop around. If you made souped up versions of the Maverick with heat shields, rifle sights, ghost rings, 1913 rails, MLOK, etc, I'll danger that it would destroy 590A1 sales....just the same as the 870 Express Tactical line ate 870P sales, since you could get all the same gizmos and gadgets for half the price.

    People are mostly feature driven, not quality driven.
    I agree for the most part. It is also quantity over quality for most folks.

    Has Mossberg actually slowed down A1 production? I used the basic 51660 as an example, because it is one of the more ubiquitous models. Even the ghost ring and M lock models seem to be very scarce right now (and going for above MSRP on auction sites). It seems that anytime Grabagun,Buds, etc.. get a batch, they sell out in very quick fashion.

    Also, I think the 870P marketing played a big role in sales as well. Unlike Mossberg, Freedom Group did not really market their higher end Police Magnum series very aggressively to the general public. I'd wager that the average shotgun buyer did not really know much about that alternative to the Express lineup. Heck, it wasn't even listed on their main website.
    Last edited by JWintergreen; 11-24-2021 at 10:29 PM.

  2. #22
    Does Not Work For You TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWintergreen View Post
    Has Mossberg actually slowed down A1 production?
    No idea, but Mossberg also has a major customer that Remington never had: the US Marine Corps. So, even if they're not buying thousands of receivers each year, there's still a steady stream of both major and minor components being produced that essentially subsidizes the overall production line. Remington doesn't have that. Remington has nothing to support their sales, in comparison. @AMC works at one of the larger police departments in the US, and even his potential order only represented a few hundred units. Ever since LE started moving to 5.56 carbines and away from shotguns, I don't think it's hyperbole to describe the Remington Police line as trivial.

    The note about marketing is certainly well stated, though. Just check out the "Retrograde" Mossberg line. Now just think if they apply an interest to LE sales, I think Remington's Police lineup is as good as dead since Mossberg's subsidized production line gives them a huge leg up in deals they could offer to departments looking to replace their shotguns, which even for a large department is still a pretty insignificant number of guns. Remington could be approached to do a special run and I'm sure they will, but just imagine the price difference between buying a special run 870P vs a current production Mossberg 590A1 that is already in production and they likely have enough sitting at a distributor right now to fulfill your whole order before the month is even over. I can't imagine Remington would even be able to come close on price, options, etc.
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  3. #23
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john c View Post
    What are agencies going to, if not the 870?

    My agency uses 870Pís, for regular patrol and less lethal. They do last a long time, but eventually the slot inside the receiver where the ejector is pinned wears out after so many replacements.
    The primary cause of broken ejector housings on Remington 870 shotguns is failing to keep the magazine tube cap/mag extension tight. If that's not tight, it allows the barrel to move back and forth and that results in impacts against the ejector housing.

    Keeping that tight and keeping the detent in the barrel ring lubricated and moving freely (which helps keep the cap/tube extension tight) helps prevent that.

    Vang Comp has/had a nice upgrade to the 870 ejector housing designed to prevent that issue from being an issue.

    Right now if an agency has to order pump guns the 590 is pretty much their only option...but the 590 isn't any less subject to QC and production issues. In fact, I've seen more recent production 590's deadline in a low round count than more recent production (prior to bankruptcy) 870's. The stamped parts of the 590 can grab each other or grab the receiver and cause serious problems. Their magazine tubes are thin and easily bend or deform. Their trigger plate is a bitch to work on and once the detent spring for the safety wears a bit they like to spontaneously engage themselves during recoil or working the action.

    Oh, and Mossberg is really stingy with spare parts.

    Like any other area of life, you're essentially choosing the set of problems you want to deal with. At the moment the fact that Remington isn't really in the market in any visible way and nobody knows what the fuck is going on there or what they're producing is a pretty tough problem to get past.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 11-24-2021 at 11:18 PM.
    3/15/2016

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    No idea, but Mossberg also has a major customer that Remington never had: the US Marine Corps. So, even if they're not buying thousands of receivers each year, there's still a steady stream of both major and minor components being produced that essentially subsidizes the overall production line. Remington doesn't have that. Remington has nothing to support their sales, in comparison. @AMC works at one of the larger police departments in the US, and even his potential order only represented a few hundred units. Ever since LE started moving to 5.56 carbines and away from shotguns, I don't think it's hyperbole to describe the Remington Police line as trivial.

    The note about marketing is certainly well stated, though. Just check out the "Retrograde" Mossberg line. Now just think if they apply an interest to LE sales, I think Remington's Police lineup is as good as dead since Mossberg's subsidized production line gives them a huge leg up in deals they could offer to departments looking to replace their shotguns, which even for a large department is still a pretty insignificant number of guns. Remington could be approached to do a special run and I'm sure they will, but just imagine the price difference between buying a special run 870P vs a current production Mossberg 590A1 that is already in production and they likely have enough sitting at a distributor right now to fulfill your whole order before the month is even over. I can't imagine Remington would even be able to come close on price, options, etc.

    Very good points. It would be interesting to see what Mossberg's military sales figues are. I doubt that it would be that high at this point (possibly not even much of a difference compared to what Remington's police sales numbers were). Another thing to consider is that the feature laden standard 590 lineup has not limited new civilian A1 offerings at all. We have even seen more options recently, such as the aforementioned A1 retrograde, M Lock models, SPX varaints, and even versions with removable choke tubes. Mossberg even switched from a five round tube to a six rould tube (on 18.5" versions), which I would guess was also a move to cater to the civilian market. Most of the images of Marine A1s out there are of 17" and 20" models with standard five round mag tubes. If the entire line was indeed being subsidized by Uncle Sam, I doubt that the civilian offerings would be as diverse as they are.

    As noted, from an purely observational point of view, they still seem to sell out very quickly at a variety of online retailers. The high prices on auction sites also indicate that the market segment still exists. I would also imagine that Remington's 870P LE sales numbers had gone down quite a bit shortly before the bankruptcy. One would think that it was essentially a special order item (or produced in small batches) when it was nearing the end of production. I purchased a new 870P near the end of production, and I am glad that I did considering the current market. If memory serves me correct, there was not a big price difference between the 870P and the comparable 590A1.

    Price point (compared to the A1), marketing, new and unique features (full length mag tubes, rifle sights, shorter LOP stocks, etc..), and a thorough examination of their competitors' civilian sales are all things that need to be taken into consideration.
    Last edited by JWintergreen; 11-24-2021 at 11:56 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I'm referring to the overwhelming shift from shotguns to 5.56 carbines as the default general purpose long arm, not from one shotgun to another.

    I'm not well versed enough to spitball a proper replacement, but if I had to replace our 870Ps I would probably start looking at the Mossberg 590 series if a pump was mandated, Beretta 1301 if I had free reign.....and then call somebody like @TCinVA when I got home from work to talk to someone who has a clue.
    The problem with the Mossbergs is that the safety is on the tang, which makes it an issue with pistol grip stocks.

    Though we have a fair number of rifle trained officers, the extra time required for training and quals makes it unlikely for general issue at my agency. We're pretty big, so the overtime numbers add up for even the officers we have. Plus the commonality of operation with the less lethal versions.

  6. #26
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Right now if an agency has to order pump guns the 590 is pretty much their only option...but the 590 isn't any less subject to QC and production issues.
    Having grown up where a lot of people couldn't justify an 870 but could afford a Mossberg, I knew from an early age that the QC and materials were not the same. The bottom line was that on the average, Mossies (and High Standards, hardware store rebrands, etc) got decrepit quicker. Shotguns from both makers declined in fit/finish over the years, but Remington just had farther to fall. (Example: I briefly owned an 870 Express that came with the makings of a decent HD shotgun, but it was a bit like buying a "shotgun kit" that I had to do the final work on. It was eventually sold to someone who was more impressed with its "breacher" choke tube and "rust-o-matic" matte oxide finish than I was.)

    I have been an 870 guy for some time, albeit not blind to its pitfalls and peculiarities. If I wanted an HD/SD/SHTF pump gun today, even these - to me overpriced - surplus 870Ps would have more appeal than any current production pump gun I could afford. They look like the wreck of the Hesperus via carelessness and neglect, but I don't see a lot of actual use on them.

    All that being said, if I was a young cat again I'd just go with a 1301T if I intended to only use it now and then, or a Benelli if I thought I would pound on it a little more.
    Last edited by gato naranja; 11-25-2021 at 09:10 AM.
    gn

    (un VIEJO gato naranja... and still skeptical about humans)

  7. #27
    How would/do Benelli Novas hold up to extended use? It seems like with a shortened forend they would probably fit in existing patrol car shotgun racks.

    Plus the price is right. I'd rather have a new Benelli Supernova tactical with ghost ring sights for an MSRP of $559 than a used 870.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by john c View Post
    How would/do Benelli Novas hold up to extended use? It seems like with a shortened forend they would probably fit in existing patrol car shotgun racks.

    Plus the price is right. I'd rather have a new Benelli Supernova tactical with ghost ring sights for an MSRP of $559 than a used 870.
    If only there were options for a shorter LOP stock, outside of the Mesa Urbino.

  9. #29
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    We were set to purchase 200 new 870Ps for patrol shotguns. As @TGS noted.....not a big number in the overall scheme of things. I agree that LE adoption of patrol rifles has also diminished the LE shotgun market. But for larger agencies like ours, especially in California where Shotgun training is a POST academy requirement, we are kinda stuck. And there are certain situations where I'd frankly prefer a shotgun. So all that said....from guys like @TCinVA, what do you think is the best option? Frankly the whole reason to go back to the 870P was for commonality of training with the LL platform. We currently have to teach two separate shotgun systems (semi and a pump), and it is very time consuming.

  10. #30
    Does Not Work For You TGS's Avatar
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    Well, you've only got about a few years left, @AMC, so fuck it. You are in California, after all......

    https://www.chiappafirearms.com/product.php?id=134

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