Waukesha WI Rampage

[Bucky]

It’d be snarky to say let’s ban assault vans, but being that has in internal combustion engine, they are in fact looking to ban them.

With the shootings and shit like this, was this always so prevalent, or was it just not communicated as well pre Internet?

[rdtompki]

In a case like this our justice system seems insufficient. The Feds, I believe, have suspended executions even if this were determined to be a terrorist event. Regardless the legal outcome the perpetrator(s) will live at taxpayer expense for decades. The harm done extends well beyond the deceased, the injured, and their immediate families. This celebration of Christmas will be forever changed.

[Rex G]

Who's going to be shooting at a speeding vehicle going thru a crowd?

Any concern about the people around the vehicle being hit?

1. I would, if circumstances/fate/your-God-or-god-of-choice put me on the spot.

2. Yes, absolutely. Same as always.

Keep in mind that a pile of bodies/debris can bring a vehicle to a crawl, or perhaps to a stop. That would be a moment that any of us, if standing in the right place, could intervene, before the terrorist can put the vehicle in reverse, for another run. To be clear, I am not advocating a field-expedient execution. Pay attention to the nuances involved.

[Rex G]

Suggestions?

Before the 2017 Super Bowl came to town, I drove to GT Distributors, and stocked-up on fresh Federal HST Tactical .45 ACP, Speer G2 9mm, and Federal Truball Penetrator 12 gauge slugs. The slugs were for auto body metal, not just glass. I presumed that I would be assigned to street barricade duty, either near NRG stadium, or, downtown, where many of the related activities were scheduled, near and inside the George Brown Convention Center.

The .45 ACP HST Tactical was for my 1911 duty pistols. (That night, I brought a second full-sized 1911 duty pistol.)

The Speer G2 was for my Glocks. Because I brought the second 1911, I did not actually bring a G17 or G19 with me, and I think that my ankle-carried G26 was loaded with the usual Gold Dots, rather than G2.

Notably, the Tactical Shotgun class that I attended, in late 2016, was, well, interesting, compared to an earlier Tactical Shotgun class.

I am retired now, so will not know about any special preparations my former colleagues might me doing, for this season’s events. (Actually, one of the things I truly miss, about working for the PD, is the Thansgiving-through late-January events, which include a marathon.)

[TGS]

Ammunition choice, nor firearm choice will not prevent future incidents like this. We use either police vehicles or DPW vehicles to block intersections in similar parade events. Your bullet, unless it's a 50 BMG is not going to do shit.

I wasn't saying it would "prevent" it. However, vehicle attacks have been terminated using gunfire, to include pistols, and it simply behooves someone to carry something appropriate if you're already carrying anyway. By carrying a gun, we're all preparing for something exceptionally rare to begin with.....being a bystander at a vehicle attack scene doesn't seem that ludicrous to me, so it makes sense to make sure you're carrying a round designed to perform well through intermediate barriers since you might need to shoot through one, regardless of how clairvoyant people on the internet can be in predicting exactly how their gunfight is going to go.

I'm not understanding why this is such a tough concept.....maybe "tough concept" isn't the right phrase. I'm not understanding why this is such a controversial concept.....maybe that's better.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming the circumstances you saw, are the ones you'll get.

I believe the original point was "if a situation presents itself in which you DO have the opportunity - I e. The vehicle is momentarily stopped in front of you - is the only thing preventing you from making that shot fixed by buying different ammo?"

Nobody is saying "in this instance, the best thing to do would have been to shoot at that vehicle from whatever vantage point."

But if you've ever seen vehicles lose control you have probably seen this happen: it hits something, like a wall, pillar, or parked car, and stays basically stationary for ten seconds while the driver figures out what he's stuck on and how to pull away.

Given that vehicle attacks are increasing...if you're choosing ammo, why wouldn't you choose ammo that would let you make that shot?

Perfect, thank you.

[RoyGBiv]

Point taken. I work in a suburb about the size of Waukesha, and was thinking about our Christmas parade, and the route, and it's just not feasible here. We just don't have the equipment and manpower.

In my slice of suburbia, on the occasions that I've worked a parade route (as a non LE volunteer), I've enrolled locals with pickup trucks to block parade route access from side streets. The qualifier being that the driver has to stay with the vehicle in case EMS /FD needs to get past. Drivers are happy to help and the kids get an elevated viewing platform.

I don't think it would take massive planning to do something similar on a suburban parade scale.

[JohnO]

A good number of people would be quite shocked in the presence of a mass carnage event as it unfolds. The subset of concealed carriers perhaps would fair better than the average population. Among the armed individuals there would be a normal distribution. Some will figuratively or literally crap their pants and on the other end of the bell curve a few would be capable.

Considering someone capable who is aware of what is happening, prepared and willing to act, can they? Do they have family in tow? You don't abandon your family in uncertain conditions. Do they have clear lanes of fire? The situation is likely to be hectic and dynamic. Have they fully observed what is or has happened? Know your target and what is beyond it.

To think one could stop or contribute to a better outcome for an event in progress would rely upon very small likelihood. I think ammunition considerations are so far down in the noise to be inconsequential.

You are in the open, the vehicle has emerged from a crowd having obviously mowed many of them down. You have a clear shot and take it. One of your rounds finds the perpetrator's CPU and he is DRT but the vehicle now veers hard off course and strikes down a fleeing family that moments before was in the clear.

[Rex G]

A good number of people would be quite shocked in the presence of a mass carnage event as it unfolds. The subset of concealed carriers perhaps would fair better than the average population. Among the armed individuals there would be a normal distribution. Some will figuratively or literally crap their pants and on the other end of the bell curve a few would be capable.

Considering someone capable who is aware of what is happening, prepared and willing to act, can they? Do they have family in tow? You don't abandon your family in uncertain conditions. Do they have clear lanes of fire? The situation is likely to be hectic and dynamic. Have they fully observed what is or has happened? Know your target and what is beyond it.

To think one could stop or contribute to a better outcome for an event in progress would rely upon very small likelihood. I think ammunition considerations are so far down in the noise to be inconsequential.

You are in the open, the vehicle has emerged from a crowd having obviously mowed many of them down. You have a clear shot and take it. One of your rounds finds the perpetrator's CPU and he is DRT but the vehicle now veers hard off course and strikes down a fleeing family that moments before was in the clear.

We can What-If anything to death.

Yes, those with families to protect, should prioritize their families, but, I can What-If that, by asking what one should do, in the event that the terrorist keeps making multiple passes, in an environment where there is no safe place to run, so, sooner or later, your family’s only hard cover is your bonded-core JHPs?

Yes, if the terrorist’s CPU is shut-down, his course may deviate, in a way that changes the fates of folks, but, at least, the terrorist will not be able to continue to make multiple passes. True, not an easy decision.

Let’s not make more of this, than it is. We should be aware that public gatherings are targeted by terrorists. We should be aware that some bullets can better penetrate vehicles. We can, therefore, choose to use ammo that is suited to the threat profile. We can choose to up-gun, if applicable, and if we are able.

[wvincent]

At TGS, ammo performance difference front windshield vs side glass?

[Wise_A]

I think my best option for improving the outcome is in immediate care. I don't need a ton of equipment to do that.

*Who has injuries that are incompatible with life? Nothing to be done.
*How many not conscious? Of those how many are not breathing? Pick one and perform CPR.
*Any small children unconscious? Call 911 and tell them there's an unconscious child. Somebody is probably already calling for air-med, but if not, uncon child following a transportation incident is a very common automatic air standby. Perform CPR if not breathing.
*Anybody unconscious with not-normal breathing? Get them on their back and perform a head tilt. If it doesn't improve, or if they appear to be gasping or snoring, start CPR.
*Nobody's unconscious, who's bleeding the worst?

If you're soiling your pants, pick ONE PERSON, and focus on just helping them.

Note also that I don't need equipment until I get to bleeding control, and truth be told, I can do a lot with a shirt or a jacket.

Other fun stuff just in case you're ever unlucky-enough to be in this situation: if someone is unconscious/not breathing with an obvious or likely spinal injury, perform a head tilt and CPR anyway. Yeah, you're not gonna be helping their whole walking situation, but they can't walk if they're dead from not breathing.

I keep harping on CPR for a reason. In the last year, I've had three trauma deaths. Only one bled to death, and that was a severe abdominal injury. Another was an extreme fall (probably DRT) and another was a severe head injury that I think was probably a lost cause. A tourniquet would have helped none of these people, but CPR at least got the third guy to the hospital alive, as he was not breathing immediately following the accident. In the meantime, I've also handled a couple dozen witnessed cardiac arrests, including a few field reversals and successful transports, all of which needed CPR.

Tourniquets are great. They're great for you, when you get stabbed or shoot yourself. If you're worried about your family and other people, go take a CPR class.