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Thread: Static versus dynamic

  1. #11
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    Look at videos of actual shootings and everybody almost always try to boogey to somewhere the bullets aren’t if they don’t get immobilized in the first volley. I think is an area where good controlled FOF has a role to play in training.

    ETA: when I was shooting USPSA and other action sports it was a good way to get comfortable moving and shooting or moving then shooting.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    When I see videos of self defense shootings, it seems like there is a lot of movement, and jackass shooting positions happening.
    The run/freeze/fight responses are part of the basic operating system. Our responses to a threat may not always be rational.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    The run/freeze/fight responses are part of the basic operating system. Our responses to a threat may not always be rational.
    But the best ways to overcome rational responses are to train (properly). Seems like people who only train static might be just practicing free throws. They may or may not be ready for a real threat, but people generally default to their lowest level of automaticity under stress.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    But the best ways to overcome rational responses are to train (properly). Seems like people who only train static might be just practicing free throws. They may or may not be ready for a real threat, but people generally default to their lowest level of automaticity under stress.
    Oh, absolutely agree. Movement and unusual position practice can only help.

  5. #15
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    I meant to type “irrational” overcome by training. Was a typo above but I think people knew what I was saying.

  6. #16
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    I will opine that the less complex the situation, the more you can systematize your response. "If A, then B"

    Or "when the mugger starts shaking down my friend, I can draw and fire"

    A full blown mall food court shootout is a different story.

    The more complex the situation, the more you need to have autonomous, embodied marksmanship, tactics and (equally important) gun handling skills.

    USPSA can help you handle the gun in an autonomous way, but some worry that it isn't the best way to move through a crowd of innocent people. Shooting drills can help you develop a very deeply ingrained level of marksmanship, but if you never move with a gun in your hand, then your mind will be racing the first time you do it, let alone shoot on the move.

    I don't know about all the alpha male sheepdog meat eaters on the gunternet, but the first time my wife even held a gun she was shaking like a leaf. Hell I get a little jolt of adrenaline every time I load and make ready. Expecting a newbie to move, shoot, cover etc...nah you've gotta be able to make a game of it so it can become deeply ingrained with practice.

    The missing part is having tactics that are autonomous. In my opinion that requires a different game that involves a resistant opponent. Whether that's FOF where you can game-ify the aspect of a short to contact range small arms confrontation or even (don't laugh) something like paintball where you can try to game-ify aspects of a medium range small arms confrontation.

    Just my opinion. I don't think paintball is a productive use of my time vs something like a well developed FOF class, of which there are precious few, and most being run by members of the Shivworks collective.

    That's because I find it highly unlikely to be involved in a shooting situation that involves me using cover and trying to suppress and flank like a paintball player would.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    I will opine that the less complex the situation, the more you can systematize your response. "If A, then B"

    Or "when the mugger starts shaking down my friend, I can draw and fire"

    A full blown mall food court shootout is a different story.

    The more complex the situation, the more you need to have autonomous, embodied marksmanship, tactics and (equally important) gun handling skills.

    USPSA can help you handle the gun in an autonomous way, but some worry that it isn't the best way to move through a crowd of innocent people. Shooting drills can help you develop a very deeply ingrained level of marksmanship, but if you never move with a gun in your hand, then your mind will be racing the first time you do it, let alone shoot on the move.

    I don't know about all the alpha male sheepdog meat eaters on the gunternet, but the first time my wife even held a gun she was shaking like a leaf. Hell I get a little jolt of adrenaline every time I load and make ready. Expecting a newbie to move, shoot, cover etc...nah you've gotta be able to make a game of it so it can become deeply ingrained with practice.

    The missing part is having tactics that are autonomous. In my opinion that requires a different game that involves a resistant opponent. Whether that's FOF where you can game-ify the aspect of a short to contact range small arms confrontation or even (don't laugh) something like paintball where you can try to game-ify aspects of a medium range small arms confrontation.

    Just my opinion. I don't think paintball is a productive use of my time vs something like a well developed FOF class, of which there are precious few, and most being run by members of the Shivworks collective.

    That's because I find it highly unlikely to be involved in a shooting situation that involves me using cover and trying to suppress and flank like a paintball player would.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    This post was outstanding for a ton of reasons. The overall topic is one that I feel like I've read about, but never seen a deep dive on. I'm certain that my opinion on it isn't really as informed or valid as a lot of other people here, and I won't offer much to ponder but I really look forward to reading it. I played an absolute ton of paintball as a kid, but it was more "outlaw" and was on about a 2 acre course in the woods nearby. While I wouldn't call those paintball games training, I certainly saw how a lot of different people responded to getting peppered with a pain response. Or trying not to get peppered. Guessing what any particular person will do when you start shooting is incredibly hard. While some of our regular players would usually act the same way in general... any given day, on any given part of the course, getting fired at from any particular angle, from any different opponent... guessing what a guy I've played paintball with a few hundred times would be a hard challenge. Basically people are unpredictable is my point.

    I'm also glad to see the food court references are still happening. I think when Mr. White was fleshing out his standards on here I was one of the first to call it the food court challenge. So seeing food court references have me giggling a bit.

  8. #18
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    Paintball versus Airsoft

    @45dotACP

    Interested on your thoughts about paintball versus tacticool Airsoft?

    I think Airsoft would be fun. I almost wish there was a pistol only, 20 round magazine shoot house airsoft sport.

  9. #19
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    I'm a big fan of micro drills or micro games. A full blown airsoft match (if that's a thing) or paintball match has become a sport of its own, but I feel with well thought out rule constraints you can target a skill to develop. Idk, say the use of cover or how to defeat a covered opponent? I like the idea of a round count constraint in a short range environment like a shoot house. I don't have much of an opinion on the use of airsoft or paintball to teach the solving of a marksmanship problem or a great many gun handling problems. But I feel like those skills are gained elsewhere.

    Interestingly enough it actually was @Mr. White who first turned me on to the idea of using things like paintball as a way to develop a narrow set of skills (the idea of "bunkering" is a paintball strategy that can sometimes apply to defeating a covered opponent was an idea he described)

    I've been working on developing my BJJ game a lot lately so I don't do nearly as much shooting or tactical training, but a good BJJ coach can produce restrictive "micro games" as a way to develop intuitive skill in a certain aspect of the sport which then becomes something you can use in the macro environment of a competition or a fight. (Look up Rob Biernacki and his idea of "fuck your Jiu Jitsu, for my fellow grapplers. It's gold)

    But to describe it in shooting terms...

    Who can clear a malfunction faster than a USPSA shooter? (Especially single stack LOL). That's because USPSA shooters micro drill malfunctions and occasionally encounter them in matches. An event that might take the novice shooter 20 seconds to resolve is resolved in three.

    The progression is a series of hueristics. The shooter seeing the jam and mentally repeating "tap rack bang", doing it, and if that doesn't work, stripping the mag and running the slide. That gives way to the shooter having a rule of thumb (if the gun doesn't bang, do the tap rack bang and if that doesn't work immediately strip the mag) and ultimately the highest level shooters knowing the gun didn't cycle correctly and they then clear the malfunction at a speed faster than they can say "tap rack bang"

    That is embodied skill. It comes from the isolated drilling that inserts a series of hueristics which then become rules of thumb, and the ultimate goal of that is to become an embodied skill, accessible without great mental effort.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Who can clear a malfunction faster than a USPSA shooter?
    At a match right now. A newer 95lb female shooter just cleared a nasty double feed in her p320 like a boss.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

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