Phoenix Police Radio Resignation

[peterb]

…It's not a lack of desire to be part of something bigger than yourself, I think there's any quite a bit to show that's still a motivator.....I think it's a lack of feeling that the traditional outlets are actually worthy to begin with.

That’s a good way to put it. Part of the attraction of the fringe groups on both sides is that they claim to be fighting for something that’s relevant to the lives of those who join.

Volunteer EMS is a tough one. It’s hard to see how anyone would think that wasn’t a worthy cause, but as you said, in some areas the patients don’t appreciate the service. In our rural area it seemed to be the steady increase in training requirements that was discouraging volunteers. The rules are always well intentioned — who doesn’t want better-trained responders showing up to their emergency? — but if you push the quality vs. quantity equation too hard you end up with nobody answering the calls.

I think social media has made it easier for people to form groups based on common interests that have nothing to do with their local physical community. Legacy volunteer organizations are usually focused on their local communities. If you feel you have more in common with your Facebook friends than the folks on your street, you’re not going to be motivated to join a local organization.

[TQP]

It's not just LE. the fire service is having similar problems-not just the rural volunteers, which as @TGS said has been going on for years, but it's impacting the metro and big city departments as well.

My ~100 member, relatively upscale suburban FD has been having diminishing numbers of applicants for a number of years, but it's really gotten bad lately.

On our current process, they wanted to hire 9. We got 4 applicants. We're losing at least 5 members to retirement and other agencies in the next couple months.

[RoyGBiv]

It's not just LE. the fire service is having similar problems-not just the rural volunteers, which as @TGS said has been going on for years, but it's impacting the metro and big city departments as well.

My ~100 member, relatively upscale suburban FD has been having diminishing numbers of applicants for a number of years, but it's really gotten bad lately.

On our current process, they wanted to hire 9. We got 4 applicants. We're losing at least 5 members to retirement and other agencies in the next couple months.

My slice of suburbia removed the EMT requirement for our FD recruits last year. Couldn't fill spots with the EMT required.

[Le Français]

It's not just LE. the fire service is having similar problems-not just the rural volunteers, which as @TGS said has been going on for years, but it's impacting the metro and big city departments as well.

My ~100 member, relatively upscale suburban FD has been having diminishing numbers of applicants for a number of years, but it's really gotten bad lately.

On our current process, they wanted to hire 9. We got 4 applicants. We're losing at least 5 members to retirement and other agencies in the next couple months.

What’s driving that, do you think?

[Lex Luthier]

CA / SF Bay Area have been doing that for at least 10 years.

I recall both the San Mateo and Marin County Sheriff’s offices had “bunk houses” where Deputies could crash between shifts. Due to housing prices in the Bay Area many LEOs live 2 hours or more from where they work. Add in compressed work schedules, OT and issues with sleep deprivation are real.

About 15 years ago I worked a case with a Palo Alto PD officer who lived 3 hours from his PD and drove an RV to work and lived in the parking lot during his work week.

Apparently there were airline employees at SFO doing the same thing -staying in RVs in long term parking during the work week.

I had heard of the same thing at PDs and knew managers at Google and elsewhere who were dealing with staff that had to do the same.

[TQP]

What’s driving that, do you think?

Short answer: I don't know, I wish I did.

I think there are a lot of factors involved. We've raised at least 2 generations-maybe 3- expecting work-life balance and a nice job with a desk. We don't offer any of that. I hate to use the term snowflake-kinda- but there seems to be more of that than when I was that age. Not that we weren't all dumb in our early 20s. Our younger guys for the most part don't want to work OT. We briefly had mandatory OT in the late 90s, which was necessary because of unfilled positions ( politics), but reinstituted it in 2019 because people weren't working, and we were regularly browning out due to lack of staff. Back in the day we had basically unlimited OT-fortunately we're better staffed than that now, and a person taking a day off doesn't automatically cause OT- and I worked 800-1000 hours a year for years. Cha ching! We had guys who hadn't worked any in the 5-7-10 years they'd been here.

I read that a large percentage of our youts (Did you say youts?) (blame @blues )are unfit for military service. Most of them can't work for us or LE either. Link below, I chose Heritage because it wasn't paywalled, but from my google search it was widely reported.

the-looming-national-security-crisis-young-americans-unable-serve-the-military

In my agency's specific case, we're a good place to work, with good benefits, and good pay. However, we're not the best in the area at any of those. Back when you could get 20 applications or more per position, that's not a big deal. But that's not the case any more, and hasn't been for a good 10 years. At least not around here.

I don't know what the fix is. More money isn't going to solve our issues any more than LE's .At some point, service levels are going to decrease, because there simply aren't enough bodies to fill the seats.

[DDTSGM]

Decline in volunteerism started with Gen Xers, which are not young people (even millennials are starting to hit retirement from police/fire/mil, to put it into perspective). Lack of volunteerism isn't a young person's issue. Many volunteer EMS squads were dying on the vine before millennials even came of age.

As for fraternal organizations, those started going downhill with boomers. When growing up I can't remember fraternal organizations being composed of anyone but 1) really old people, like Silent Generation and Greatest Generation, and 2) smaller numbers of boomers, usually those trying to make a name in local politics......

.....Things like that. It's not a lack of desire to be part of something bigger than yourself, I think there's any quite a bit to show that's still a motivator.....I think it's a lack of feeling that the traditional outlets are actually worthy to begin with.

You make some good points. I agree the trend with volunteerism and the fraternal organizations has been ongoing for numerous years, so let's call it an ongoing trend. I belonged to a local Kiwanis Club about 30 years ago, I was in my mid-30's and I was the youngest member in our club. I left the club largely because other than the social aspect, which wasn't that big a draw to me, in the several years I belonged we did less and less.

So, yeah I'm familiar with the issue, didn't artfully state my belief.

[jh9]

I had heard of the same thing at PDs and knew managers at Google and elsewhere who were dealing with staff that had to do the same.

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-...t-2015-10?op=1

When people making Google money are living in the parking lot you need to start asking some questions.

[Le Français]

Short answer: I don't know, I wish I did.

Thanks for the reply; I’m sure you’re right that a variety of factors are in play. It seems like conventional wisdom (within LE) has been that the shortage of applicants is mostly because society doesn’t support cops doing their jobs anymore. Of course, that’s not the case with fire fighters, but as you say, there’s more to the story.

The work-life balance in the fire service isn’t “home by 1730, weekends and holidays off”, but isn’t it common to have multiple days on (to include on-call down time at the station) followed by multiple days off every week? Of course, then you add forced OT…

[mmc45414]

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-...t-2015-10?op=1

When people making Google money are living in the parking lot you need to start asking some questions.

I have read about this before, mostly on blogs and such talking about camper conversations. Many of these people are new to the company, many of them starting after bumming around for a while, and rather than spend $3-5,000mo on a place to put a bed they sleep in the van. One guy said his routine was to go to they gym or the beach or the mountains after work anyway, so all he needed was a place to keep his surfboard and mountain bike and sack out. Show up early at work and there were plenty of amenities for hygiene. Anotger summed it up that the gym membership (with a shower) was a lot cheaper than rent, and he wanted the gym membership anyway.

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