Why Liberals *Should* Love the 2nd Amendment

[Nik the Greek]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/0...cond-Amendment

It's all true. I'm a liberal anti-authoritarian, and my two favorite amendments are the first and the second. It's deeply frustrating to me that otherwise thoughtful, rational and intelligent individuals go empty headed real quick once firearms enter the discussion.

Still, if you have liberal friends or family who are anti-gun, and they're politically minded, this might be a good way to reach out to them.

[EMC]

Great article, thanks for sharing.

[fuse]

Kind of gives those on the left a little too much credit, IMO.

[Nik the Greek]

Kind of gives those on the left a little too much credit, IMO.

I'm open to a discussion. What specifically do you mean?

Edit: It's easy to develop misconceptions about what 'the other side' thinks, or why they believe what they believe, in an echo chamber.

[Suvorov]

In my experience and opinion, the term liberal has been hijacked by progressive statists. While is a small percentage of those on the left who truly embrace the concept of personal freedom, the majority hold to progressive leftist ideology which is the very antithesis of liberty. In short, the vast majority of liberals aren't. In fact, the calling of the leftist faction in this country "Liberals" is an obscene example of double speak.

This writer makes a long series of valid and indisputable points, but his words will fall on largely deaf ears.

[Kyle Reese]

I think that the term "liberal" is misused these days.

Many on the far left want to deprive the rest of us of our right to free speech, expression, the right to keep & bear arms, etc. That's not "liberal", it's more along the lines of fascism/statism. They have much of the mass media on their side as well (echo chamber), and will stop at no fabrication, lie or distortion to achieve their ends.

[Suvorov]

I'm open to a discussion. What specifically do you mean?

Edit: It's easy to develop misconceptions about what 'the other side' thinks, or why they believe what they believe, in an echo chamber.

Reading the comments at the end of the article however shows that while this "liberal" may very well be on target, most of his colleagues are far from adopting the same equal defense of the RTKBA. It isn't an echo chamber, it is "the other side" in their natural habitat.

[cclaxton]

http://www.liberalswithguns.com/page2.html
http://guntotingliberal.com/
http://democratsforgunownership.org/
http://www.saysuncle.com/2009/03/20/...s-and-guns-10/
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/
http://www.gunlovingliberal.com/
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-819628
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...al-gun-owners/

Times have changed. A recent poll shows 46% of Democrats support concealed carry. A 72% majority think citizens should have the right to obtain a concealed carry permit, 46% of Democrats and 57% of Republicans. A majority of Americans believe people should have the right to use deadly force to defend themselves and their loved ones in their homes. 77% of Republicans strongly support a background check before allowing the sale of a firearm.

Don't know where you have all been, but the war on guns is over....the 2nd Amendment has won!

Look at Pennsylvannia...it has gone Democrat both at the State and Federal levels in terms of politics, but remains heavily gun-friendly.

Gun rights are no longer a left vs. right argument...regardless of how you try to redefine "liberal" and "Conservative".

The gun bans did not dramatically reduce gun violence, and that fact cannot be dismissed by anyone...left or right.

Here is an intersting poll result: 27% of Republicans think there should be strong regulations or restrictions on gun ownership. Only 6% of Americans think there should be no or very few restrictions on gun ownership.

This is a recent poll located at: http://www.ipsos-na.com/download/pr.aspx?id=11545

Democrats and Liberals have changed their thinking on guns and personal safety. On the other hand Republicans seem to support some gun regulations and background checks.

It's not the 70's anymore!

CC

[Nik the Greek]

I think that the term "liberal" is misused these days.

Many on the far left want to deprive the rest of us of our right to free speech, expression, the right to keep & bear arms, etc. That's not "liberal", it's more along the lines of fascism/statism. They have much of the mass media on their side as well (echo chamber), and will stop at no fabrication, lie or distortion to achieve their ends.

I can agree that the term is widely mis-used, but I should point out that I think that it's possible to want to build a healthy society and a functional government without that pursuit automatically devolving into an Orwellian nightmare too. I think it would be fair to say that the intention of most liberals is to create an open, egalitarian, free and just society where the maximum percentage of the population is socially and politically empowered and enfranchised. That gets expressed different ways, some of which I disagree with vehemently. I haven't ever heard anyone, anywhere, in any of my personal, professional or scholastic pursuits push for absolute authoritarian government control. The Soviet Union certainly did it, but no one I know, or have read, wants anything like that here. People tend to conflate 'Socialism' with 'Authoritarianism'. Not that it would be accurate to characterize all American leftists as socialists, but if they're socialist they're still not authoritarians. Regardless, if anything, they fear fascist, jingoistic "jack booted thugs" from the right. When the Patriot Act was passed, I know I was more than a little concerned. It's ironic that we conjure the same images to scare ourselves into fearing and reviling our fellows. I believe that more unites us than separates us.

That said, from "this side" it seems as though conservatives in government mostly want to limit 'entitlements' and shrink the government into irrelevancy. With that in mind, I see a grand hypocrisy that pushes bigger military spending and reduced domestic spending on education and social welfare. I also see a lot of religious oppression on that side, with strong push to legislate a single religion's concepts of morality (ironically, except the parts that involve helping the poor. It's usually about keeping gays from getting married or some other similar personal freedom infringing bullshit). It also seems that concepts get pushed under the guise of fairness, that aren't really fair at all (like flat tax rates). It seems, from this perspective, that the political conservatives in power invest a lot of time and money manipulating a voting base in the interest of pursuing their business and financial interests.

I haven't run into too much from the left that involves limiting speech or expression (unless you're talking about overturning People's United?). I'm curious as to what you mean?

There are a ton of reasons why the media tends (slightly) toward the left. There are hugely important and traditionally conservative structures, like big business and the military, which thrive on secrecy. Journalists aren't keen on secrecy, and it creates an environment of opposition and mutual mistrust ("Those guys are hiding something, probably something they're doing wrong" vs. "Those guys will irresponsibly unveil important secrets!". Chips fall accordingly. A lot of it is related to education - and while there are schools that are indeed heavily liberal, universities aren't really vast liberal brain washing apparatuses that I've seen them characterized to be. I've had critical thinking skills and mental rigor emphasized far, far more often in my schooling than any particular liberal philosophy. Liberals tend to associate conservatives with dogmatic, faith-without-evidence kind of thinking (which I know to be untrue). Personally, I arrived at my political philosophies on my own, influenced strongly by history. I believe strongly in personal freedom. I also believe that the 'big guys' should be regulated and watched carefully, because history teaches that when they aren't, they stomp all over the little guy.

This writer makes a long series of valid and indisputable points, but his words will fall on largely deaf ears.

Some will be deaf, no doubt. Not all, though. Hell, I used to be one of those guys saying "c'mooon. A shotgun is fine for home defense - what do you need an AR-15 for?" As I got educated, I changed my mind. Exposure to ideas changes minds, but it's a gradual process, because human beings aren't wired to change our minds. We're wired to try to win arguments even when we know we're wrong. We're wired for confirmation bias. We're wired to hold onto our ideas, tightly.

Anyway, looking to the comments section of any given website for rational and even-handed discourse is like expecting a meth addled howler monkey to give a dissertation on philosophy.

Both of the major parties suffer from gross hypocrisies. Our two party system needs to go. American political thought is far more complex than either party would have us believe. It's in their best interests to maintain existing power structures, but those power structures restrain effective political expression.

[Suvorov]

Don't know where you have all been, but the war on guns is over....the 2nd Amendment has won!

Kalifornia, Chicago, with layovers in New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts.

What do these states all have in common other than draconian gun laws?

Hell, in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia we are in a death struggle right now to be able to keep are already morbidly neutered ARs. I can assure you that the congressman leading this attack does not have an R after his name.

The war is still burning hot my friend.