Great Shotgun vs AR talk...

[Phaedrus]

Just so everyone understands, the Japanese guy didn't survive two direct hits by the nukes. He was something like a mile from the blast IIRC. Of course, no point wasting buckshot at a guy that's nuke-proof! Aside from the interesting non-specific anecdotes being entertaining I'm not sure what they tell. Guys in the American Civil War survived amputations by cannonball, one stewardess survived a fall from 35,000 feet when her plane broke up and one claims to have been hit by lightning seven times. Great stories all!

[Phaedrus]

EDIT. here it is. Granted it's a mess of a shooting. Every side got something.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/man-sur...810-11ukw.html

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No mention of any of the hits being rifle rounds, or any mention of specifics at all (eg where he was hit, with what, if he was still fighting back, etc). It's just kind of a "cool story, bro" story.

[Phaedrus]

If you’re counting on your chosen 5.56 defensive load to reliably physiologically incapacitate determined adversaries in one or two shots, I highly recommend you research terminal ballistics a little more.

I don't load my carbine with just one round. If you load your 12ga with just one round maybe you need to research terminal ballistics a little more as well.

Since we seem to drifting well off topic, let me remind everyone that when defensive gun use is discusses it's irrelevant if the adversary survives, only that they stop what they're doing.

[JCN]

When I was hatching my self defense plan a few years back I came up with a suppressed 5.56 bullpup as my secondary (Glock 19 bedside as primary).

I discounted shotguns because they couldn’t be suppressed.

Fast forward a couple years to today…

I just ordered a shotgun suppressor….

[4RNR]

No mention of any of the hits being rifle rounds, or any mention of specifics at all (eg where he was hit, with what, if he was still fighting back, etc). It's just kind of a "cool story, bro" story.

Well being it was cops I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was handguns, most likely 9mm. Most likely from Sig 226 or Glock.

How many news stories do you know that list specifics like caliber, where shot, .....etc...

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[GJM]

A 12 gauge Brenneke shotgun slug is about .68 caliber and 500 grains. I haven’t tried to figure how buckshot compares, but it is also a massive payload compared to each round of 5.56. I don’t think the discussion is whether buck and slugs are equivalent to a round of 5.56, because an informed person understands they are not, and round for round, the shotgun is significantly more decisive. The question is what tool is best for your environment, anticipated scenario and skill set.

[WobblyPossum]

I don't load my carbine with just one round. If you load your 12ga with just one round maybe you need to research terminal ballistics a little more as well.

Who mentioned anything about loading any gun with only a single round? No one is debating whether a single-shot rifle or single shot-shotgun is better.

Since we seem to drifting well off topic, let me remind everyone that when defensive gun use is discusses it's irrelevant if the adversary survives, only that they stop what they're doing.

I don’t see this discussion as off topic at all. The premise of the video was how to efficiently stop a hostile. Discussions on whether you can actually stop someone with your chosen weapon are totally on topic.

Reread the first paragraph of my initial reply. I was specifically addressing the ways you stop a hostile. There are only two ways: psychologically or physiologically. We aren’t generally worried about psychological stops because it generally doesn’t matter where you shot someone or with what you shot them with if they’re going to be a psychological stop. It’s the physiological stops we’re worried about. There’s central nervous system stops (brain or spine shots that cause immediate cessation of hostilities), circulatory system stops (cause enough bleeding that their brain can’t get oxygen and they pass out), or skeletal stops (mobility kills like shattering the pelvis won’t stop someone from pulling a trigger but it’ll stop them from getting any closer to you which might be enough depending on their weapon and your ability to find cover).

[Phaedrus]

We very rarely get great details from the news. So mostly we hear from your uncle that was in Nam, the guy who's brother's cousin's best friend was dating an ER doc, etc. It's pretty tough to find a lot of specifics sometimes. The best resource I've found has been the great meta-study by Greg Ellifritz. Shotguns have the best "stopping power" (the phrase is meaningless but the best term we have) but by a more slender margin than many would suppose. It's not wise to expect an adversary to be instantly incapacitated by any man-portable arms system with a single shot, and I don't train as though it's expected. No matter if I'm using a 12ga or a 5.56 carbine I will expect that more than a round will be needed.

Naturally the needs of individual users will vary. The 12ga is a great option, and indeed I have a pretty nice shotgun myself. I also have carbines, rifles and handguns. Each has applications where they excel.

[Navin Johnson]

It's the singer not the song......

[GJM]

We very rarely get great details from the news. So mostly we hear from your uncle that was in Nam, the guy who's brother's cousin's best friend was dating an ER doc, etc. It's pretty tough to find a lot of specifics sometimes. The best resource I've found has been the great meta-study by Greg Ellifritz. Shotguns have the best "stopping power" (the phrase is meaningless but the best term we have) but by a more slender margin than many would suppose. It's not wise to expect an adversary to be instantly incapacitated by any man-portable arms system with a single shot, and I don't train as though it's expected. No matter if I'm using a 12ga or a 5.56 carbine I will expect that more than a round will be needed.

Naturally the needs of individual users will vary. The 12ga is a great option, and indeed I have a pretty nice shotgun myself. I also have carbines, rifles and handguns. Each has applications where they excel.

To help understand your perspective, do you have much hunting experience?