Great Shotgun vs AR talk...

[OlongJohnson]

Hammer strut, sorry, I mistyped.

https://www.practical-shotgun.com/be...-strut-failure
https://www.practical-shotgun.com/be...ut-replacement

Mag tube wear over time in high round count guns:

https://www.practical-shotgun.com/be...-mag-tube-wear


The 1301 is a good shotgun, but a Benelli M4, it is not. Different lineages and purposes.

Anyone know where that guy is located? Sounds like somewhere in Britain. I noticed he cut away a big chunk of the serial number when opening his loading port.

Given where that hammer strut failed, I suspect that there may be production variation in the bend that could be inspected and failure predicted to be more or less likely between several parts. Possibly some tuneup of the surface tooling marks to reduce the likelihood of failure, but the struts are cheap enough that part selection might be a worthwhile strategy.

I saw the mag tube wear issue discussed on the net years ago; it may have been that video. On my Gen 1 gun, the inside of the gas piston felt quite rough, and you'd expect it to wear the tube. I smoothed it until the edges no longer felt rough or sharp, hoping to reduce the wear. I can't say I've put enough rounds through it to judge whether it was successful, but I feel better having done it. Variation in machining on the ID of the piston as tools wear would be an expected reason for variation in the rate of mag tube wear between guns. One gun showing it in a few thousand rounds and another going past ten thousand without a problem doesn't mean one owner is doing something wrong or reporting fakenews. I speculate that management of mag tube wear may be a reason for the coating on the Gen 2 piston. Any Gen 1 piston should be able to be cleaned up to be as non-aggressive to the tube as another.

Midwest Gun Works has 1301 parts at reasonable prices. Hammer struts are cheap, mag tubes aren't bad. This is a new development in the past few years, which I suspect @e_stern may have had a role in.

https://www.midwestgunworks.com/beretta-1301/parts.html

[rob_s]

But we arent shooting up mud huts and then stepping into a 400m alley urban or even rural America.

I would say that, by and large, “we” aren’t doing any of those things. We may be taking about them. We may be simulating them in matches, range days, and classes. But “we” aren’t really DOING any of them.

Which is also one of many reasons I’ll continue right along owning and shooting ARs. Because what I’m actually doing with them (or, I suppose, used to) is exactly the kinds of things you’re describing, albeit on paper, cardboard, and steel, not people.

Although, I suppose, in fairness, the only shooting I really do at all these days is with shotguns. Which, along with the resultant passing interest on the part of my wife towards using “her” shotgun as a security blanket, is why I’ll ultimately choose the 1301 over the Benelli, and the only reason I keep clicking on these threads to begin with.

For every guy that thinks he’s choosing a shotgun over the AR because:reasons, there’s ten anachronistic gun owners that want to buck the trend simply because they think doing so makes them look innovative or smart.

Like the guys that keep insisting on re-writing the 4 Rules.

[blues]

I would say that, by and large, “we” aren’t doing any of those things. We may be taking about them. We may be simulating them in matches, range days, and classes. But “we” aren’t really DOING any of them.

Which is also one of many reasons I’ll continue right along owning and shooting ARs. Because what I’m actually doing with them (or, I suppose, used to) is exactly the kinds of things you’re describing, albeit on paper, cardboard, and steel, not people.

Although, I suppose, in fairness, the only shooting I really do at all these days is with shotguns. Which, along with the resultant passing interest on the part of my wife towards using “her” shotgun as a security blanket, is why I’ll ultimately choose the 1301 over the Benelli, and the only reason I keep clicking on these threads to begin with.

For every guy that thinks he’s choosing a shotgun over the AR because:reasons, there’s ten anachronistic gun owners that want to buck the trend simply because they think doing so makes them look innovative or smart.

Like the guys that keep insisting on re-writing the 4 Rules.

This post pretty much makes no sense to me...especially the bolded part, which also doesn't make clear sense to me but also makes me wonder about the basis for the assertion.

Maybe I just need to down this cup of coffee (then grab another) and wake my brain up.

[HCM]

This post pretty much makes no sense to me...especially the bolded part, which also doesn't make clear sense to me but also makes me wonder about the basis for the assertion.

Maybe I just need to down this cup of coffee (then grab another) and wake my brain up.

Reference to an old PF thread.

[blues]

Reference to an old PF thread.

Okay. Thanks.

[gato naranja]

Nicely written post.



One question and one comment(ary).

I haven't previously read about 1301 trigger bar replacement intervals. Do you have any links?

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In WWI, there was a lot of accusing the other side of unfair weapon use. It's reported that the French were summarily executing any German as a war criminal if he was captured in possession of truncated cone flat point 124gr 9mm ammo. It was the original bullet design for the cartridge, but was observed to be significantly more effective on meat than a round nose and therefore was argued to violate the Hague treaty.

I've also read that shotguns are considered in Europe, to this day, to be inhumane when used by against human criminals, even ones who need to be shot. The cultural reason for that is that shotguns escaped the near-universal, stringent gun control of Europe so that people could hunt ducks and farmers would have the ability to deal with predatory varmints and put down large farm animals when necessary. Thus, there is more than a century of shotguns being associated with "execution" of livestock. So today, and for generations past, if a shotgun is used against a human, it is perceived as them being treated like livestock. It's possible that when some corn-fed* midwesterners dropped into a trench and started laying down hate with the gauge, they perceived it as being morally like an animal slaughterhouse. Kind of complaining about the rope one is hung with.

I don't know to what extent that was a factor in objecting to the use of shotguns in the trenches, but I'm open to it being at least a part of it.

*Similarly, I've been told that when German prisoners were brought to the U.S. midwest and fed well with corn, they felt they were being treated inhumanely. The reason is that in Germany and Austria, corn is regarded as pig feed, not food for humans. So the POWs thought they were being intentionally treated as pigs would be treated. Which was obviously not the case.

Culture is a weird and interesting thing.

The extended family included a gent who had been injured early in WWII and later ended up guarding German POWs at a camp in the rural midwest. The POWs would often be trucked out to do farm work and many of them were fed lunch by the farm families who were no strangers to sweet corn; others worked in canneries that packed sweet corn. The Germans were often initially put off by the stuff, but the majority came around and differentiated "sweet corn" from "field corn." Incidentally, a large number of these farm families had German ancestry and often a member who spoke German, and some of the "grandparents" would tease these POWs in their "old-time" German about all sorts of things, including corn "phobia." By and large, the inmates of that camp were not hard cases, and things went surprisingly well. The gent in question who was guarding these corn-o-phobes had picked up enough conversational German as a child that he knew the lay of the land (so to speak). He had some interesting tales.

I have a bit of Teutonic ancestry, and my dad's maternal family were not much for guns, though they all had some sort of small-bore "boy's" rifles along with shotguns for bad critters and occasional hunting... a few of the more prosperous ones had GOOD shotguns. Other than to persuade reluctant bridegrooms, I don't think any of them used shotguns as social instruments.

[Caballoflaco]

The extended family included a gent who had been injured early in WWII and later ended up guarding German POWs at a camp in the rural midwest. The POWs would often be trucked out to do farm work and many of them were fed lunch by the farm families who were no strangers to sweet corn; others worked in canneries that packed sweet corn. The Germans were often initially put off by the stuff, but the majority came around and differentiated "sweet corn" from "field corn." Incidentally, a large number of these farm families had German ancestry and often a member who spoke German, and some of the "grandparents" would tease these POWs in their "old-time" German about all sorts of things, including corn "phobia." By and large, the inmates of that camp were not hard cases, and things went surprisingly well. The gent in question who was guarding these corn-o-phobes had picked up enough conversational German as a child that he knew the lay of the land (so to speak). He had some interesting tales.

I have a bit of Teutonic ancestry, and my dad's maternal family were not much for guns, though they all had some sort of small-bore "boy's" rifles along with shotguns for bad critters and occasional hunting... a few of the more prosperous ones had GOOD shotguns. Other than to persuade reluctant bridegrooms, I don't think any of them used shotguns as social instruments.

To continue the diversion, the reason that Europeans had such a low opinion of corn is that when it was first brought to Europe the Europeans didn’t bring over the American Indians’ process of adding lime (Nixtamalization) to the cornmeal. Thus their cornmeal was thus lacking in nutritional value (especially niacin) and quite a few peasants died of malnutrition, pellegra being one of the most common diseases, despite having “food” to eat. So the German dislike of corn wasn’t simple Teutonic snobbery.

A heavily corn based diet was also a problem in the rural southern states of the U.S. until fortified grains were added to the diet.

[TCinVA]

Anyone know where that guy is located? Sounds like somewhere in Britain. I noticed he cut away a big chunk of the serial number when opening his loading port.

Practical shotgun is a big deal in the UK because they are so limited in what they can own. They can own semi-automatic shotguns so they basically USPSA with them.

And that means they are doing USPSA levels of round counts in matches and training. Which is an order of magnitude above what I'm doing with my sustainment work.

[Guerrero]

SMH

[Unobtanium]

SMH

#1, My shotguns for HD are 14", and I'd not be wanting to grab the barrel of my gauge no matter how long it is. Yes, Ive attended training of multiple types and so forth. He is being very presumptuous/general, and also blamong hardware for a software issue.

#2, Yes, it is slow to load vs an AR. I am indeed figuring on solving the issue in 5-7 rounds that are in the gun. Kyle Rittenhouse solved multiple attackers in a mob environment with 8. Some cops have spent 20+ rounds in a vehicle stop encounter. It is what it is and you need to make calculated choices, here. Quality, or quantity?

#3, Yes, I agree. Racking it is a bad idea for effect. I do not agree on reliability. Ill take quality autoloader. His lack of concern over short stroking under stress, and yet his belaboring of lack of training regarding barrel length and short stocking and weapon retention is a clue that he has approached shotguns from an academic standpoint, and that this video is about preconceived notions he has, and not actual experience or more in depth fact finding.

#4, I agree, I am not a fan of magazine fed shotguns. Leaving mags loaded can, over time, cause the shells to "oval" and feed poorly/not at all. This is also why I like flite control. The wad keeps the shell from mushrooming in a tube.

#5, good talk on pattern and ammo

#6, he has excellent taste in PCCs.

My gauge isnt "unwieldy".