Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 130

Thread: Great Shotgun vs AR talk...

  1. #1
    Member GearFondler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana

    Great Shotgun vs AR talk...

    I really enjoy Rhett's take on these things... A lot of logical arguments in favor of the 12g for personal defense.

    https://youtu.be/Vwi_EBPbwI8

  2. #2
    Member Phaedrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Location
    Big Sky Country
    Thanks for the link! I subscribe and have notifications turned on but often I don't notified anyway.
    I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. - Richard Feynman
    When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist.- Archbishop Helder Câmara

  3. #3
    Rhett has created a specific scenario, where his incredible skill with his specialized method, delivers persuasive results. Take 100 homeowners, have them run the same drill trying to neutralize three bad guys with the stock-less pump, and then a conventional stocked AR, and I suspect we would come to a different conclusion. Add in some target movement, and some target missing, and even with a stocked pump, I suspect the result would skew even more to the conventional magazine fed carbine.

    Now, if the question is whether a conventionally stocked semi auto shotgun like the 1301, loaded with good buck, is a better home defense choice than an AR, we can have a lively debate where reasonable people disagree.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #4
    Member Phaedrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Location
    Big Sky Country
    I know he's involved in medicine in some capacity so he likely has good knowledge of wounding, BUT I take great issue with assessment of the various rounds. Never have I heard a credible source indicate that it takes on the average three to five rounds of modern, duty-type ammo from an AR to incapacitate a person! I can't imagine anyone absorbing that many 115gr HP/SP .300 Blackout rounds nor Mk262 5.56 rounds before being out of the fight. Plus, he's a strong advocate of .22LR for CCW so I don't even understand where he's coming from when he discusses gunfighting. Love the guy, though! He's obviously immensely skilled and a real innovator from a technique perspective.
    I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. - Richard Feynman
    When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist.- Archbishop Helder Câmara

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    I can't imagine anyone absorbing that many 115gr HP/SP .300 Blackout rounds nor Mk262 5.56 rounds before being out of the fight.
    There was a police shooting in NY where the NYPD pumped 20+ rounds into the guy and he was still alive afterwards. This was late 2000s maybe 2009?!?!?

    There was a SF guy that took like a dozen rifle hits. He was talking about it on a podcast a few years ago.

    I personally know a guy who in the early 90s took six 7.62x39 rounds to the chest and the guy who shot those didn't walk away from the fight.

    And there was a man who survived both atomic bombs!

    Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Powder Potentate Borderland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    49th Parallel
    I'm tired of the shotgun/carbine/pistol home defense debate.

    I've never see anyone at the range running their stockless shotguns. On the other hand I see plenty of people running drills with pistols. We don't have a range that accommodates carbine drills but plenty of people are on the firing line lighting up the 200 yd plates. We also have trap and something that resembles SC but no stockless shotguns allowed there.

    So where do these people with stockless shotguns go to drill? Or do they?
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  7. #7
    I am on call and don't have 24 min. TLDR version?
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by 4RNR View Post

    There was a SF guy that took like a dozen rifle hits...

    I personally know a guy who in the early 90s took six 7.62x39 rounds to the chest and the guy who shot those didn't walk away from the fight.
    If the first guy is the same I am thinking about, he took 16. But his body armor stopped 11. Was the guy who took six AK hits armored up?
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    If the first guy is the same I am thinking about, he took 16. But his body armor stopped 11. Was the guy who took six AK hits armored up?
    No. Balkans, house to house fighting.

    The NY guy was a club scene if I remember correctly.

    EDIT. here it is. Granted it's a mess of a shooting. Every side got something.

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/man-sur...810-11ukw.html

    Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    I know he's involved in medicine in some capacity so he likely has good knowledge of wounding, BUT I take great issue with assessment of the various rounds. Never have I heard a credible source indicate that it takes on the average three to five rounds of modern, duty-type ammo from an AR to incapacitate a person! I can't imagine anyone absorbing that many 115gr HP/SP .300 Blackout rounds nor Mk262 5.56 rounds before being out of the fight. Plus, he's a strong advocate of .22LR for CCW so I don't even understand where he's coming from when he discusses gunfighting. Love the guy, though! He's obviously immensely skilled and a real innovator from a technique perspective.
    I don’t think it’s possible to scientifically determine how many rounds of a certain type of ammunition it takes to physiologically stop someone since most stops are psychological. I can say the training I’ve received in the military, law enforcement, and the private sector generally leans towards the idea of three to six rounds per threat. Unless you’re hitting the brain or the spine with your rounds, what you’re doing is causing bleeding. You’re letting air in and letting blood out. If some determined adversary isn’t going to be a psychological stop, and you fail to hit the spine or brain, then they’re going to fight you until their blood pressure drops to the point that they fall over. It doesn’t much matter what small arm you shot them with, you’re going to have to keep shooting until they stop. If you’re counting on your chosen 5.56 defensive load to reliably physiologically incapacitate determined adversaries in one or two shots, I highly recommend you research terminal ballistics a little more.

    I believe the Navy SEAL some folks have mentioned is Michael Day. He entered a room and immediately took fire from three different hostiles using AK-47s. He soaked up a lot of bullets. Then he killed those guys.

    ETA: back when Tom Givens was still based in Memphis, he would hear from ER staff about some of the gunshot victims that were brought in to the local level 1 trauma centers. I can’t remember if this is something he wrote or something that he stated during the class I took with him about five years ago, but at the time the highest number of handgun rounds the doctors removed from the heart of someone who ended up surviving was 6. Human beings are pretty damn resilient.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •