Nice catch, I was thinking he had just tucked it under his arm and let fly.Originally Posted by mmc45414
Nice catch, I was thinking he had just tucked it under his arm and let fly.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits - Mark Twain
Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy / Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Toe up from the flo’ up.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits - Mark Twain
Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy / Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
While was continuing to be a nerd I came across a nice graphic on Lucky Gunner and put a few numbers with it:
Added Cross Section:
I am 35. I got into shooting when I was a kid. Around age 8-9, I was running a colt 1911. Slowly, methodically, 1 round in the chamber, place on safe, I picked it up, unsafed, fired it. My Dad taught me the best he could, and the burgeoning internet put a young teen in touch with others, later on. I first shot an ar15 as a swat officer let me fire his, at a local range, when I was 13. Still other officers at the time, were using mini14s because of reliability, budget, and other issues. The 5.56 carbine was a cool thing, but every cruiser had a gauge in the rack. Hunting a deer with a 5.56 was bullshit and irresponsible. The light bullets either ice picked, or blew up early. Varmint hunters loved the relatively long barrel life and rapid fire afforded, though. Jim over at Clark's Custom Guns made that 2 chamber "tank" break famous. The guns barely moved. Olympic Arms had an honest 1/4 to 1/2moa barrel. Life was really good. The guns were heavy, accurate, or light carbines. Magazines were usgi metal.
Then I was in highschool, and about 2/3 through, "Some people did a thing..." and America went to war. Barrels got shorter, bonded ammo and heavy OTM became a thing, Dr. Roberts put out recommendation to use the 77SMK, powerpoints were made, pictures shared, and testomonies testified. Rails began to float, Acogs started popping melons, and a whole generation or two of boys became men. When they were 9 they saw m4s on CNN, when they were 19, they took M4s overseas and were on CNN.
I stayed home. Went into the world of medical things. College, hospitals, etc. One by one my friends came home, luckily, and they went and bought ARs. Not heavy barrels. Not 3-9x. 16.1" barrels with Aimpoints and Acogs. Light. Fast. Stuff they killed people with. Stuff that worked---to whatever degree it had to, to get them home.
I took note, and bought ARs, myself. Mk18s, M4s, that type of stuff. I trained. Took courses from Kyle Lamb, Craig Douglas, Frank Proctor, etc. Got to play with the latest and greatest. Mk6 scopes, surefire suppressors on 10.3" guns. The works. The AR had come of age, and it was popular, blooded, and you can find an aiming solution and ergonomic controls solution to suite you, whether you have 1 arm, are in a wheelchair, or want to run your light at any number on the clockface. Why? Because an entire generation of men and women now are adults, and have used it, and moved to engineering and advising and all manner of roles. The ar15 is ubiquitous. "America's Rifle".
I think this has as much to do with people's preference for it than anything, and maybe has the most to do with it. Ive killed numerous deer with mine, now, using proper ammunition. Dr Roberts no longer pushes the 77gr OTM, but rather much better projectiles. Non-free-float barrels are now "KISS" or "Retro". People have killed people with, and trust this platform.
Behind it all, though, sits the 12 gauge. Recently enjoying a mild renaissance, of sort, with better ammo, but still largely less popular with "those who know". But we arent shooting up mud huts and then stepping into a 400m alley urban or even rural America. We are engaging limited numbers of highly dangerous actors in close quarters. They typically are also unarmored. We have a litigious society which has no understanding of violence, save movies and CNN (and really...thats war...cant have that on our streets...not war. That's...over there.). They don't like seeing 5-7 shell casings with little numbers next to them. What we need is overwhelming trauma...fast...close...personal.
Nothing does this like a 12 gauge loaded with the correct ammunition and employed at the correct distance. Nothing has the mathematical odds of hitting the CNS as quickly as one trigger pull from a gauge loaded as such. Nothing is going to literally remove parts of your target like a 12 gauge. I feel like experience, and exposure, are a big reason that the AR has replaced the 12 gauge in so many homes and police cars, where maybe...just maybe...the 12 gauge might be the better tool for the iob.
Other key points:
-Nothing is a guarantee
-My Benelli M4s have been more reliable than any other weapon Ive owned, save my Ruger VT bolt gun.
-The Benelli M4 was shown to last 20,000 rounds of full power buck/slug prior to any need for parts replacement or breakage. It is extremely robust. Other guns, like the 1301, 1187, etc are wonderful guns, but they are hunting guns adapted to combat. They do not have this level of robustness, although with proper PM a d replacement schedules of things like trigger bars on 1301s, they do fine.
-short barrel 14" shotguns don't give up much velocity at all to 18.5s using low recoil buck/slug.
It is my opinion, that a properly loaded 12 gauge shotgun offers a superior solution to the niche problem most people will actually need a firearm for ("I need to stop someone's actions immediately, within my immediate vicinity!"), and that the main reason the AR15 has been touted as superior, is because of familiarity and experience.
I back this by saying that some excellent rounds for the .30 carbine turned cheap m1s into near identical performers to modern 300BLK carbines. A few people caught on. Lost in the noise. Popularity and image are what drive things, Ive learned. Not necessarily "best for the job". However, being the best guarantees staying power, and the shotgun has remained in/near its modern form, longer than most any other firearm used by our military and police, and many civilians. That the Germans tried to have it banned for its brutality from the battlefield trenches speaks loudly, as well. It will work brutally in the trench of my hallway, as well, if called to do so.
Nicely written post.
One question and one comment(ary).
I haven't previously read about 1301 trigger bar replacement intervals. Do you have any links?
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In WWI, there was a lot of accusing the other side of unfair weapon use. It's reported that the French were summarily executing any German as a war criminal if he was captured in possession of truncated cone flat point 124gr 9mm ammo. It was the original bullet design for the cartridge, but was observed to be significantly more effective on meat than a round nose and therefore was argued to violate the Hague treaty.
I've also read that shotguns are considered in Europe, to this day, to be inhumane when used by against human criminals, even ones who need to be shot. The cultural reason for that is that shotguns escaped the near-universal, stringent gun control of Europe so that people could hunt ducks and farmers would have the ability to deal with predatory varmints and put down large farm animals when necessary. Thus, there is more than a century of shotguns being associated with "execution" of livestock. So today, and for generations past, if a shotgun is used against a human, it is perceived as them being treated like livestock. It's possible that when some corn-fed* midwesterners dropped into a trench and started laying down hate with the gauge, they perceived it as being morally like an animal slaughterhouse. Kind of complaining about the rope one is hung with.
I don't know to what extent that was a factor in objecting to the use of shotguns in the trenches, but I'm open to it being at least a part of it.
*Similarly, I've been told that when German prisoners were brought to the U.S. midwest and fed well with corn, they felt they were being treated inhumanely. The reason is that in Germany and Austria, corn is regarded as pig feed, not food for humans. So the POWs thought they were being intentionally treated as pigs would be treated. Which was obviously not the case.
Culture is a weird and interesting thing.
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Not another dime.
Unobtanium: Well said indeed.
Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
Am interested also. My 391 has been shot pretty extensively with very little care and feeding and has been one of the most reliable things I have ever owned, and this is part of what attracted me to my brand spanking new 1301.
Hammer strut, sorry, I mistyped.
https://www.practical-shotgun.com/be...-strut-failure
https://www.practical-shotgun.com/be...ut-replacement
Mag tube wear over time in high round count guns:
https://www.practical-shotgun.com/be...-mag-tube-wear
The 1301 is a good shotgun, but a Benelli M4, it is not. Different lineages and purposes.
Last edited by Unobtanium; 11-13-2021 at 11:43 AM.
Thanks for the info, and "thanks" for referral to another forum to take up my time, haha.
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