Shouldn't this be something we should be doing regardless fo the firearm? I mean, I have engrained in me to do tactical reloads if I'm not shooting. Obviously gaining cover is first, but if I'm behind cover and not shooting, I'm reloading, even if it's a Glock 17 and I only fired a couple shots.Originally Posted by HCM
Last edited by OldManClemens; 11-07-2021 at 06:16 PM.
Interesting about the plates. Do you know what kind?
Well, yeah- all factors that crop up in real life need to enter into training & tactics or why bother with training and tactics at all? We have to careful of fallacies in our thinking such as using argument from consequences; eg. "facing an adversary in body armor might make my shotgun useless, and that's such a terrible thought that it can't actually happen to me." Statistics can guide us they only inform so much. In my hometown of 250k I knew of one home invasion in a span of a decade (a guy I worked with, and likely folks he knew robbing him of drugs), and my present town has seen a single homicide in the last decade (an elderly man, almost certainly killed in his home by someone well known to him). Basing my decisions on stats alone I would not keep any firearm for home defense.
I wouldn't have addressed this while it was still in the 1301 thread but since it's not I think it's a fair question and a useful one. The popularity of the shotgun for home defense seems to have waned as the popularity of the AR platform has boomed. This is no coincidence, I think. It's fair to ask if the shotgun is the best weapon for "social use" in one's home. I think the jury is out on that one. While I have a 1301 Tactical, I didn't buy it for HD but rather as a camp gun. My home is in SW Montana in an area with some of the highest concentration of Grizzlies in the lower 48. Climate change and an influx of humans has lead to contact & conflict with bears becoming much more common. A 900 lb bear can move 20% faster than Usain Bolt crush any bone in a human body with one swat. A charging bear presents a spot about the size of an orange where a shot will result in instant incapacitation. If you can't hit a bobbing orange moving 35 mph with your chosen gun, then you need to choose a different gun. I can't do that with a big bore wheely but I can do that with a long gun. But of course folks don't run Brenneke Green Lightning slugs for home defense as a rule.
As a home defense gun a shotgun has some advantages and some serious drawbacks. First they kick pretty hard, especially with the kind of loads most suggest for combat use. The manual of arms can be difficult for folks not into guns. They have very limited capacity vs an AR. While terminal performance can be impressive it has to be weighed against the lack of ammo and heavy recoil.
And yes, a 12ga generally won't penetrate any body armor, not rifle plate nor even the soft armor that might be worn under a jacket or T-shirt. My guess is that a 1oz slug hitting the chest of a guy wearing soft armor still could be lethal and would likely be debilitating, but it won't penetrate. How common is body armor? I really don't know. There have been a few high profile cases where the perp definitely wore body armor and a score of others where media accounts were contradictory or incomplete. News agencies often confuse tactical web gear with actual armor and likely they don't have access to the true facts. But I own armor, three sets in fact. Two are rifle-rated ceramic/PE in carries and the other is a lo-pro rig with just front & back IIIa panels. Since armor is now cheaper than even an entry level handgun I wouldn't be surprised to see it crop up more and more. If I'm wearing it then there's a chance a bad guy is wearing it, too.
My primary HD setup is two carbines set up pretty much the same. Both have lights (same location), two point slings and Aimpoints (a Comp M5 and PRO, respectively). Ammo is 77gr OTM in 30 round mags. If I have time to don a plate carrier there are extra magazines on the front, otherwise I'll have to fight with what's in the gun. This ammo will easily defeat soft armor and I have ammo that will defeat at least some plates (but probably not what's in the gun). It seems statistically that this particular round rivals buckshot for effectiveness, and follow-up shots very quick. Running my carbine on the dueling tree vs a skilled guy with a pistol is eye-opening.
So circling back to the question, is the shotgun a good choice for HD? Certainly it can be, but is it the best choice? For most people it's probably not. Not being a big hunter I was never really able to ingrain the muscle memory to use a pump shotgun quickly and reliably (I tend to short stroke when I'm in a hurry, a problem that's pretty common). My 1301 is awe-inspiring but it cost me $1,300 and to date I've got about $900 of accessories to get it how I want it. That's probably not something the average person wants to deal with. But there are plenty of $800 carbines that will do the job with less recoil, higher capacity, faster follow-up shots, cheaper ammo and with comparable effectiveness.
Lastly, I have considered switching my 1301 Tactical to "primary" HD arm but it won't happen soon. In the spring I wrecked my shoulder in a fall, had surgery in April and am probably about halfway through the rehab/recovery process. The surgeon encourages me to get back out hiking and has cleared me to head to the gym, but so far he's told me not to shoot the 12ga til my shoulder is stabilized. But I can manage the carbine now, albeit not with the same speed as I could before the injury. When I can train more with it I may still go with the Beretta. But if "the balloon goes up" before then I'll be grabbing my carbine.
I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. - Richard Feynman
When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist.- Archbishop Helder Câmara
All AR 500 and one “fritz” helmet.
No, not really.
It’s a necessary evil with lower capacity systems like revolvers, shotguns and 1911s. Otherwise it’s something I only want to do when / if I choose to do so, not because I have to.
Better to use limited band width on fighting tasks such as situation awareness, communications, movement etc
There tends to be a lot more going on than just running the gun IME.
I'd argue if a person doesn't practice tactical reloads (with any platform) what makes you think they'll actually do it if they're in a real-world situation when they actually need to do it. Again, that's probably unlikely, but many on this forum seem to prepare for the worst case scenario and have all kids of body armor, NODS, helmets, at the bedside, stashed throughout their house, etc, but tactical reloads shouldn't be a priority. I mean heck, if you're preparing for the end of the world to come at your front door with multiple attackers who according to many will be wearing body armor, even if you have well-placed shots they may not do much so follow-up shots will be necessary, thus depleting your capacity. Best to top off often and frequently.
And I don't think I said that tactical reloads take priority over everything else. I did mention seeking cover. Also need to assess your target to make sure they're out of the fight and do a 60 scan and not get tunnel vision and only focus on your target because there will most likely be other assailants, so I think the situational awareness thing is implied here given the high level of proficiency of the members here (which is why I join since I'm relatively new at all this).
Guess I've been taught wrong though about performing tactical reloads whenever it's possible and practical to do so, but I don't think so, especially given I'm in CA and limited to 10 round magazines. Tactical reloads make even more sense, but I'm still all ears for suggestions and others who think differently.
How many mags do you carry? Because that's how many tac reloads you have. Then you're just swapping back and forth between partial mags for whatever reason.
Magazine fed weapons are all or nothing. Shotguns and revolvers are just replacing empties (with a revolver you push the extractor slightly and hook out the spent cartridges, then replace them. Obviously with a shotgun you're just topping off the tube as the empties get shucked out as new shells are loaded)
If you fumble or you are interrupted and drop a shell, you've dropped a shell. If you drop a mag, you've dropped a significant portion of your loadout.
Run dry with a mag fed weapon and getting it back in the fight is much faster than running a shotgun or revolver dry.
Hence why tac reloads are prioritized with shotguns and revolvers over magazine fed weapons.
All of which is completely irrelevant to the vast majority of users in the vast majority of scenarios, but there you go.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Some people here do this for a living.
Some have threat concerns beyond simply “random crime.”
Tactical reloads are not “wrong,” but applying them universally as some type of bright line “always” or “never” rule is. Platforms which let me have one less thing to use up my mental bandwidth in a fight, like not having to tac load (or reducing the conditions which trigger a tac load) are a real advantage. This is the same reason medium caliber guns with higher capacity and quicker reloads have been a consistent trend in fighting guns.
Those same advantages can be seen in competition such as the various divisions within USPSA, IDPA etc.
I’m running 18 to 22 rounds in my duty pistol and 30 in a carbine. If I was still running an 870 and an 8 round .45 my priorities would be different. Just as your priorities are different due to the state of CA’s artificial restrictions.
TTPs evolve as equipment evolves. Whether tac loading, flashlight techniques etc.
M1 with blacktips. Check
Tactics are just that. They are not a plan.
If something is prudent then do it.
I'm probably not going to perform a tac reload after 2 rounds from an M9. 6 rounds from a 1911? Maybe, if I think it's more important than keeping a loaded gun in my hands. 5 rounds from a revolver? Even that's a maybe, especially since it takes twice as long to do. Am I better off with a loaded gun with one round or an empty gun for 4 seconds?
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