Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

[TCinVA]

Here's the thing about shotguns as defensive tools:

With handguns and rifles every best practice out there is teaching people to fire multiple shots rapidly. Because that's what you have to do to stop a threat. You can expect it to take multiple rounds from a handgun or a rifle to force the other guy to stop what he's doing.

Convincing someone is different than forcing them.

Those shots have to land to have the intended effect. Which means in the 3-5 rounds you can expect it to take, you have to repeatedly get those shots right under high levels of stress. If you've spent any time behind a handgun or rifle shooting multiple shots at speed you know how easy it is to miss with a number of rounds in a series of shots.

One of the things I do in more advanced shotgun classes is have people test how long it takes them to draw a pistol and put 3 rounds on a B8 sized piece of steel at 10-12 yards. (Red Stitch Dum-Dum targets) It's usually a much longer time than they anticipate because they miss. Sometimes folks go through almost an entire Glock magazine before getting those 3 hits. Some folks we called mercy on after they had to reload their pistol.

Then I have them perform an emergency load with a shotgun and fire one shot and we see how long that takes. So far nobody has missed with the shotgun shot. Not even the people deep into their second magazine with the pistol.

Part of that is the long gun is easier. Part of that is the training: Training them to understand what the shotgun does and how to use it.

When you understand that the shotgun's virtues mean you only have to get it right once, and then you're trained on how to actually get that once efficiently, it has a way of changing how you are using the gun. Because it has that fight stopping power you are able to spend a little more time making the shot count. And a little more time (an extra 1/4 or 1/2 a second) is usually all it takes to get a much more accurate shot on target.

The virtues of the gun multiply when we discuss engaging multiple targets at relatively close range. Firing a series of shots from a pistol or a good rifle on multiple targets takes longer than firing a single shot from the street howitzer on multiple targets. In class I routinely get folks to fire three shots to the high chest of a threat target from a ready position in 3 seconds or less.

It's a rare crew that can press an assault against that kind of response.

[03RN]

I've needed follow up shots when I think the entirety of the pattern was not on the torso. I never stopped to check why but it's just an assumption. I'm comfortable admitting that I either missed completely or partially at close range when I was moving over broken ground firing at someone else moving while firing.

Past 15-20 yards the patterns were opening up enough that a few pellets could very easily have missed with a less then perfect shot.

[Caballoflaco]

Here's the thing about shotguns as defensive tools:

With handguns and rifles every best practice out there is teaching people to fire multiple shots rapidly. Because that's what you have to do to stop a threat. You can expect it to take multiple rounds from a handgun or a rifle to force the other guy to stop what he's doing.

Convincing someone is different than forcing them.

Those shots have to land to have the intended effect. Which means in the 3-5 rounds you can expect it to take, you have to repeatedly get those shots right under high levels of stress. If you've spent any time behind a handgun or rifle shooting multiple shots at speed you know how easy it is to miss with a number of rounds in a series of shots.

One of the things I do in more advanced shotgun classes is have people test how long it takes them to draw a pistol and put 3 rounds on a B8 sized piece of steel at 10-12 yards. (Red Stitch Dum-Dum targets) It's usually a much longer time than they anticipate because they miss. Sometimes folks go through almost an entire Glock magazine before getting those 3 hits. Some folks we called mercy on after they had to reload their pistol.

Then I have them perform an emergency load with a shotgun and fire one shot and we see how long that takes. So far nobody has missed with the shotgun shot. Not even the people deep into their second magazine with the pistol.

Part of that is the long gun is easier. Part of that is the training: Training them to understand what the shotgun does and how to use it.

When you understand that the shotgun's virtues mean you only have to get it right once, and then you're trained on how to actually get that once efficiently, it has a way of changing how you are using the gun. Because it has that fight stopping power you are able to spend a little more time making the shot count. And a little more time (an extra 1/4 or 1/2 a second) is usually all it takes to get a much more accurate shot on target.

The virtues of the gun multiply when we discuss engaging multiple targets at relatively close range. Firing a series of shots from a pistol or a good rifle on multiple targets takes longer than firing a single shot from the street howitzer on multiple targets. In class I routinely get folks to fire three shots to the high chest of a threat target from a ready position in 3 seconds or less.

It's a rare crew that can press an assault against that kind of response.

All of that ultimate stopping power is true until the badguys are wearing NIJ level 2 soft armor or better. The North Hollywood Shootout with two guys in home made soft-armor suits were impervious to LAPD’s shotguns and pistols.

I’ve also read of at least a couple of accounts of cops taking shotgun rounds to the vest and still prevailing in a fight. Though I unfortunately don’t recall specific cases at the moment.

At least around here, and as seen during the civil unrest last year, all sides know about body armor these days. I would expect that people doing armed home invasions vs accidental burglaries in occupied dwellings are likely using it (though it’s likely that it would be cheap steel armor that will stop rifle fire too).

ETA: I actually really like shotguns. I like shooting them at birds and in action shooting type matches and wouldn’t loose sleep if it was the only long gun I owned.

[HCM]

All of that ultimate stopping power is true until the badguys are wearing NIJ level 2 soft armor or better. The North Hollywood Shootout with two guys in home made soft-armor suits were impervious to LAPD’s shotguns and pistols.

I’ve also read of at least a couple of accounts of cops taking shotgun rounds to the vest and still prevailing in a fight. Though I unfortunately don’t recall specific cases at the moment.

At least around here, and as seen during the civil unrest las year, all sides know about body armpit these days. I would expect that people doing armed home invasions vs accidental burglaries in occupied dwellings are likely using it (though it’s likely that it would be cheap steel armor that will stop rifle fire too).

Most of the civil unrest people on both sides are rocking plates, usually AR500 steel which has limited coverage and spalling issues.

However IME soft body armor is so ingrained in the US criminal culture that fake soft armor is available as a fashion statement.

[Cory]

So now our ammo capacity should be influenced by room clearing, multiple armed bad guys, and body armor?

I think each person should take a look at what their life is like, and what their risk is actually like. I understand and agree that statistics are cold comfort, and all the other cliches like that, but it seems to me that anticipating acting like the things @03RN has seen and done is likely in our lives is pretty far out of the question for most of us.

A no BS risk assessment for many, many, people is probably not going to involve fighting off hordes of bad guys wearing body armor. It might be getting really prevelent in criminal culture, but are we thinking its so significant we need AP rounds? If that's the case why even own a shotgun for social use?

[OldManClemens]

So now our ammo capacity should be influenced by room clearing, multiple armed bad guys, and body armor?

I think each person should take a look at what their life is like, and what their risk is actually like. I understand and agree that statistics are cold comfort, and all the other cliches like that, but it seems to me that anticipating acting like the things @03RN has seen and done is likely in our lives is pretty far out of the question for most of us.

A no BS risk assessment for many, many, people is probably not going to involve fighting off hordes of bad guys wearing body armor. It might be getting really prevelent in criminal culture, but are we thinking its so significant we need AP rounds? If that's the case why even own a shotgun for social use?

No matter what someone says of suggests someone will come along and say, "yeah but what about this..." and try to one up the previous scenario that 99+% of most people would find themselves in. Like you said, instead take a look at what your own life is like, what your risks most likely are or could be and base it around that and be realistic. But there will always bee "that guy" who deals in absolutes all the time and will come back with an attempt to discredit anything someone says ebcause there may be that 0.00001% chance of some oddball scenario that COULD happen, because ANYTHING is possible, right?

My limited experience take on it is whatever an individual decides to rely on as their home defense weapon (or weapons), just understand that weapon, be able to run the weapon and know the weapon inside and out, know how to deal with malfunctions, and practice with it. That's much better than arguing back and forth about this outrageous scenario or that outrageous scenario...

[Cory]

No matter what someone says of suggests someone will come along and say, "yeah but what about this..." and try to one up the previous scenario that 99+% of most people would find themselves in. Like you said, instead take a look at what your own life is like, what your risks most likely are or could be and base it around that and be realistic. But there will always bee "that guy" who deals in absolutes all the time and will come back with an attempt to discredit anything someone says ebcause there may be that 0.00001% chance of some oddball scenario that COULD happen, because ANYTHING is possible, right?

My limited experience take on it is whatever an individual decides to rely on as their home defense weapon (or weapons), just understand that weapon, be able to run the weapon and know the weapon inside and out, know how to deal with malfunctions, and practice with it. That's much better than arguing back and forth about this outrageous scenario or that outrageous scenario...

I completely agree.

I also want to make clear, I'm not saying anything more than 5 rounds is nuts. I saw that referenced in another thread. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying there IS a point of ridiculous that each of us decides for ourselves.

[03RN]

So now our ammo capacity should be influenced by room clearing, multiple armed bad guys, and body armor?

I think each person should take a look at what their life is like, and what their risk is actually like. I understand and agree that statistics are cold comfort, and all the other cliches like that, but it seems to me that anticipating acting like the things @03RN has seen and done is likely in our lives is pretty far out of the question for most of us.

A no BS risk assessment for many, many, people is probably not going to involve fighting off hordes of bad guys wearing body armor. It might be getting really prevelent in criminal culture, but are we thinking its so significant we need AP rounds? If that's the case why even own a shotgun for social use?

I was only addressing this question you posted "Can either of you provide 2 instances where it required more than a single hit with 00 buck on a person to stop them, in any scenerio?"

My 590 currently is without a sidesaddle card velcroed on because the Velcro has started to peel. I'm not overly concerned, I'm not in Fallujah. Im more concerned about bears and moose.

[HCM]

So now our ammo capacity should be influenced by room clearing, multiple armed bad guys, and body armor?

I think each person should take a look at what their life is like, and what their risk is actually like. I understand and agree that statistics are cold comfort, and all the other cliches like that, but it seems to me that anticipating acting like the things @03RN has seen and done is likely in our lives is pretty far out of the question for most of us.

A no BS risk assessment for many, many, people is probably not going to involve fighting off hordes of bad guys wearing body armor. It might be getting really prevelent in criminal culture, but are we thinking its so significant we need AP rounds? If that's the case why even own a shotgun for social use?

Other options aside - if I hold the master bedroom in my current house vs the hall to the front door and rest of the house it’s a left side cover/barricade situation so ammo on buttstock is out and RDS is a requirement to allow me to shoot from my “wrong side” shoulder.

Four of the subjects I’ve arrested in the past year have had body armor (all plates) - so it’s logical to assume any of their friends who want to settle up will have body armor too.

AP rounds are not a realistic option so non flite control buck in volume is an option. Of course volume requires.. more ammo.

Plus shotguns are like revolvers in that if you aren’t shooting you should default to loading.

[OldManClemens]

I completely agree.

I also want to make clear, I'm not saying anything more than 5 rounds is nuts. I saw that referenced in another thread. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying there IS a point of ridiculous that each of us decides for ourselves.

Absolutely! The only person who can decide where to draw that line of what's enough ammo and when it starts to border on absurdity is you based on your needs (either perceived or actually experienced) and your current situation. What bugs me is someone comes along and says it HAS to be their way and everything else is rubbish because they apparently know more about you and your situation than you do.