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Thread: Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    I'm aware of Boyd's concept of OODA. I've had my ass handed to me from a deficit before. I'm aware that "the bad guy gets a vote". My point was more that in my experience with shotguns, hunting or otherwise, the level of ammo being discussed was overkill.

    That being said, I'm not advocating that the shotgun's capacity is unimportant. My own 1301 has a nordic +2 and a side saddle. My 1187 has a buttcuff. My 835 sling holds a few extra shells (parallel to the sling). I'm in no way against having the ability to reload or top off.

    Deficits and OODA asside, where do you think is the point of diminishing return of ammo on gun? My preference is generally enough to reload an empty gun on me. Regardless of the task at hand. Unless training, or playing games where I have a few boxes around. So enough to reload an empty gun to capacity is kind of my personal theshold of reasonable. What shell count is that for you, and does it vary with task? I meant it when I said I was open to adjusting my thoughts on shell count.

    While were on the topic, what do you guys perfer to carry extra ammo on gun? I feel like I've dabbled in butt cuff, sling, and now side saddle. I haven't got any real preference so far. Has any carry position proved consistantly better?
    With Shotguns I think ability to fully reload the gun is as much as practical due to the size/weight/bulk of the ammo. 4 to 6 rounds.

    While I generally agree with Tom Gibbons theory shotgun rounds as being a “serving “ hitting with that serving, multiple opponents, or the potential need to use fire for suppression to cover movements etc means I want to be able to feed a good catholic family.

    I’ve had the best experience with side saddle types. The Mesa and Aridus versions bring better than the original side saddle type. I like the idea of Velcro cards but have had rounds drop out of them while working. The Aridus version seems to be best.,

    Butt cuff is better than nothing. Not a fan of ammo on the sling - it becomes a pendulum if the sling is loose and is not consistently placed making for even slower reloads.

  2. #22
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    Lots of opinions and generally well worded. Because there are different needs and reasons for why members select their gear, let me suggest a method of arguing your point without arguing it. Mission drives the gear, so layout what your mission is, i.e. walking in bear country, defending your 1400 sq ft house in suburbia with a wife and 3 kids, defending your 5,000 sq ft, fenced & gated mansion with assorted supermodels but no kids, farmhouse with the police 20 minutes away and your nearest neighbor a mile down the road, etc. The simply lay out your rationale for your choice. Some will nod their heads and agree, that's my situation and my choice too. Some won't. They can express their choices and the reasons therefore, and at the end of the page, we all have additional, sometimes new information that results in minor or major changes in our load out.

  3. #23
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    If you are concerned about capacity prior to needing a reload, ease of packing more ammunition on your person, and reload speed then the best attachment for your shotgun is an AR-15. Then unmount the shotgun.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Then unmount the shotgun.
    No need to go to that extreme... And you could still run a side saddle!


  5. #25
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    Deficits and OODA asside, where do you think is the point of diminishing return of ammo on gun?
    The problem you're trying to solve does that.

    Are you trying to repel boarders due to a riot or a civil insurrection? Moar ammo, Moar better.

    Are you trying to repel boarders from a home invasion because you have a nice house and bad guys may think you're hoarding diamonds under the bed? whatever is in the magazine plus your pistol is likely to take care of you.

    Are you making a dynamic entry with a team meaning to take out bad guys in each room? Different again. A set of velcro cards for a side saddle carried in a vest will probably enable you to keep the shotgun loaded up as you move from situation to situation but you will be relying on your teammates more to provide downrange hail.

    Personally I like the the side saddle better simply because my home set up can require changing shoulders often, but the only reload I'm likely to need would be an emergency one shell because something went wrong in my manipulation of the weapon; that's what my problem looks like, yours is likely different.
    " La rose est sans pourquoi, elle fleurit parce qu’elle fleurit ; Elle n’a souci d’elle-même, ne demande pas si on la voit. » Angelus Silesius
    "There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers." Paul Muad'dib

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    I've never heard that Pat Rodgers story before. (Pat Rogers relayed an account of being present in a situation where New York City's emergency service unit blasted a knife armed emotionally disturbed person in the chest with a shotgun with buckshot and his reaction was just to roar at them.) I have no doubt it's true considering the source. It's the first time I've ever heard of someone getting a solid hit with 00 buck, and the person not immediately being out of the fight.

    Remember, Rogers was probably retired from the NYPD before the advent of the low recoil and FC wads, or their widespread adoption. The pre-FC wad rule of thumb with 00B out of cylinder or improved cylinder police 870's was pattern spread of 1 inch per yard. So at ten yards it wouldn't be improbable to not have a pellet not hit an immediate or rapidly incapacitating area.

    Regarding the being immediately out of the fight thoughts, many people survive being shot by the police. According to Dr. Fackler, the primary reason for one shot stops during police gunfights was/is the psychological response of being shot. I think it is fair to ass-u-me that being shot with a police shotgun might be more psychologically devastating than being shot with a pistol.

    Additionally, the drive/motivation of the subject plays a role, as does intoxication or psychologically altered states, whether natural or drug induced.

    For a short time, IMO, the FC wads gave the police shotgun new life, extending it's effective range, and dramatically increasing the likelihood that a centermass hit will cause nearly instant incapacitation.


    I didn't mean to make quite that much stir with my post. Posts about needing a butt cuff and a side saddle both for anything but a class, or "dazzling" a bad guy with a light to make it hard for him to aim... that crap reaks of misinformation. With the absolute devestatingly effectivness of 12G we get into fantasy land pretty fast with needing 20 damn shells. And lights aren't used to mess up the bad guys aim. They're to light what you can't see so you can shoot it. While the thread was absolutely not about any of that, it struck me as pretty off base to not address. Guess I was wrong.
    Not sure what you mean by the underlined - I don't think you can ever have too many rounds

    Re buttstock carriers: MY feeling is that part of any tactical/home defense training should include support hand/support side manipulations, simply put corners and cover are either right or left handed. Shouldering a shotgun on the right shoulder while pieing a left hand corner will likely cause most folks to expose themselves around cover; trying to shoot around the driver's side front fender with the shotgun mounted in the right shoulder will also unnecessary expose the shooter (just an example to illustrate - not intended to get in the weeds about using cars for cover). Keeping all that in mind, the butt stock carriers are no go's IN MY MIND because they don't allow effective usage of the shotgun off both shoulders.

    Re lights: While illuminating the target to positively identify a threat and aiding accuracy under dimlight conditions are no doubt some of the primary reasons for using a WML or a handheld light, taking a sudden light deployment to the face also serves to momentarily startle the subject, creating lag time and putting you ahead in the OODA loop. The light in the face can also serve to mask movement in relationship to the subject.

    Those are just my observations.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    I'll add the book to my amazon list, thank you. While no single round is a guarantee of ending a threat would you agree that the odds of requiring a 7+1, side saddle, and butt cuff is gecko45 level ridiculous to stop a threat? While one member here has done some warzone room clearing with a gauge and might have actually needed that much, at what point does ammo carriage become ridiculous for our given task whatever that may be? I get the what ifs, but for me the statistics inform or give depth to my choices. Somewhere there is a line of reasonably prepared for most issues with liklihood of need vs prepared for everything to the ignorance of reality.

    For me, and others may differ of course, in the type of hunting I do or defense I draw the line at whats in the gun plus a butt cuff or side saddle. It seems like fantasy SHTF stuff for me to picture needing more to batter turkeys or defend my home. Possible, but highly improbable. I could see needing more if duck hunting or playing more clay pigeon games... but I wouldn't likely carry all the ammo on the gun in either case.

    If I should adjust my ideas of what's reasonable, I'm open to that.
    When hunting with a shotgun, I am exclusively hunting small flying birds, with an occasional rabbit thrown in. I do not add any on-gun ammunition carry: either I stuff shells in my pants pockets, or in my hunting vest pockets, with extras in my pack if I am likely to need more than a box distributed between the magazine tube and various pockets (like if I’m on a dove field or water tank where I have a high bag limit and I’m likely going to miss a lot). I suspect if I decide to hunt turkeys, my shotgun will still not have a butt cuff or side-saddle.

    For clay pigeon games, I walk out to play my round of gun golf wearing a shell bag with one or two boxes of shells in it (one box is the amount needed for a round of trap or skeet), with the rest of the shells I’ll need for the day under my chair back at the shade pavilion next to my water and Gatorade. For those games, shooters are only allowed to load the exact number of shells needed for each stand in their gun at a time, so any on-gun ammo carry would be superfluous, in addition to throwing off the balance of the gun.

    I don’t really have a shotgun set up for HD, and I never used one on a deployment, so I will refrain from commenting on that.
    Last edited by Duelist; 11-07-2021 at 12:15 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Not sure what you mean by the underlined - I don't think you can ever have too many rounds

    Re buttstock carriers: MY feeling is that part of any tactical/home defense training should include support hand/support side manipulations, simply put corners and cover are either right or left handed. Shouldering a shotgun on the right shoulder while pieing a left hand corner will likely cause most folks to expose themselves around cover; trying to shoot around the driver's side front fender with the shotgun mounted in the right shoulder will also unnecessary expose the shooter (just an example to illustrate - not intended to get in the weeds about using cars for cover). Keeping all that in mind, the butt stock carriers are no go's IN MY MIND because they don't allow effective usage of the shotgun off both shoulders.

    Re lights: While illuminating the target to positively identify a threat and aiding accuracy under dimlight conditions are no doubt some of the primary reasons for using a WML or a handheld light, taking a sudden light deployment to the face also serves to momentarily startle the subject, creating lag time and putting you ahead in the OODA loop. The light in the face can also serve to mask movement in relationship to the subject.

    Those are just my observations.
    For a static home defense plan, switching shoulders isn't much of a concern. I'm not a soldier anymore, and don't plan on room clearing if I don't have too. I selected the side saddle for my social gun though so the option exists. My pact timer broke, but I'll try putting them on the clock at some point and see what shakes out.

    While psychological stops are absolutely a thing and have been noted as responsible for most stops that's not what I was refering too. I was talking about terminal ballistic performance. In that relm I don't think anything really matches the 12G with 00B at close range. I try not to speak in absolutes very often but the gauge is the most effective firearm there is at close range. The very high terminal effectivness is one of the biggest strong suits of ths weapon. While no hit is a guarnteed stop, nothing has as high a chance of stopping as a 12 from my bedroom door to my front door. If the hit is made statistics are wildly in my favor. And for a static shot under 10yrds I'm confident I wont need to use every shell in the house.

  9. #29
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    Can either of you provide 2 instances where it required more than a single hit with 00 buck on a person to stop them, in any scenerio?
    I know of a few...but they required more than one hit because the initial shots didn't hit the good stuff.

    Scotty Reitz's book contains an account of a raid where a bad guy responded to officers making entry by going for a gun. I believe it was Scotty himself who fired a shot from his shotgun hitting the dude in the arm and almost amputating it...but the dude kept going for the weapon requiring a second and more accurate application of buckshot to the upper chest to stop him.

    Generally if more than one shot per bad guy is needed it's because of poor accuracy. Poor accuracy is usually the result of shotguns poorly suited for defensive work (14" LOP stocks, bead sights, etc) and/or minimal dedicated training to the use of the gun.

    Does barricading all friendly folks in a room, and training a shotgun at the door seem viable to you guys?
    Incredibly so. The only way to really overcome somebody barricaded with a tubular repeating claymore between him and you and the luxury of some cover is with overwhelming force and even then it's going to be a costly victory.
    3/15/2016

  10. #30
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    As a FOG, here's my take. Never used a shotgun in anything real. I have taken a Givens and a Moses shotgun class and then shot my Winchester Defender in IDPA like matches for practice. So:

    1. While I live in nice, low crime small town - I don't think three invaders is out of the realm of possibility. Nor is one black bear (haha). With three targets, so to speak - I figure - two shots each. One not immediately effective, one miss and/or one manipulation screw up. Thus, that's six shots and I have just two left. Reloading a shotgun from my experience is not fast (practice more - well, compared to the many carbine or handgun times, that's probably not happening). The side saddle is not fast.

    I note that I can miss with the gun. The claim that I probably won't miss is BS under stress

    2. The one intensive house exercise I did was at the old intensive NTI with a double barrel. I've mentioned this before where they simulated you being naked (BBI!). Thank you we weren't' as seeing that crowd naked would blind you. So we wore a sheet, pancho over us to preclude carry options on body and were given a box of shells. Thus, we heard a noise and you couldn't stay put. Theoretically, you were supposed to reach into the box and find slugs or shot by touch (yeah, right) and load appropriately. I didn't. I just loaded and went. Multiple BGs who you had to find or might just pop out! At the end, one guy ahead of me at a distance that might have been slug but whose feeling for that when you have to reload and one to the right. Load and the bird shot did knock him down and take out the right guy. Surprise, left guy real close up. So I butt stroked him mightly and the ref approved. Thus, I opine that the two shot Biden special is not for me, despite articles saying how you might run a 'tactial' double, O/U or even single barrel gun.


    3. I think of reading WWII fighter encounters. Sometimes pilots shot down nobody, sometimes one opponent - that was the statistical norm and sometimes they shot down up to 11 planes. Should they have only carried enough rounds for two? The fallacy of planning for the central tendency rather than the reasonable cut in the extremes of the incident intensity distribution makes NO statistical /predicative sense to me. Yes, the unreasonable load it is too far in the tail. It might be the p = .0001 level but the .05 or .01 makes sense and that's 10 to 30 rounds.

    4. That leads me to my conclusion that if I do have a long arm, it's a carbine as easier to use and more rounds on board. Even though I have the Defender available for Smokey, it's not a first go.

    Thus, the thoughts of a FOG. Most likely, Glock and light, if not carbine. Might I work down to the shotgun, statistically unlikely. The state troopers are two miles away anyway and the neighborhood is full of law/gun homeowners.

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