Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

[Clusterfrack]

On the topic of shotgun capacity and the real world...

The internet has lots of theories about shotgun's obsolescence as a useful tool due to concerns about encountering multiple armored threats. As it happens, someone who has been to several of my shotgun classes was forced to apply a good deal of what we'd taught when multiple threats wearing level IV armor attacked the place where he was staying.

Apparently shotguns loaded with 1600 FPS slugs will shatter foreign made level IV armor plates...and the wearer of said plate can be put on the ground by the experience long enough to allow a followup shot to the CNS that proves definitive in stopping the threat. And this can be accomplished quickly enough that it can be repeated on the next couple of similarly armored bad guys coming up that stairwell.

In class I joke that it's unlikely that helicopters full of armored ninjas are going to break into your house so a shotgun will probably handle what you need it to handle.

The bizarre thing about training people to protect themselves is that something you say as a joke might actually come true. While there was no helicopter involved, a bunch of actual armored ninjas showed up intent on killing someone who had developed true proficiency with a shotgun and he managed to keep himself alive by using the light switch and an 870.

...and so I'll say again that if anyone in the world ever gets the notion to try and kill me, I pray to God they're fucking stupid enough to do it while I'm inside a typical residential structure when I have a shotgun handy.

This deserves a “like” and a “fuck yeah!”

[Doc_Glock]

On the topic of shotgun capacity and the real world...

The internet has lots of theories about shotgun's obsolescence as a useful tool due to concerns about encountering multiple armored threats. As it happens, someone who has been to several of my shotgun classes was forced to apply a good deal of what we'd taught when multiple threats wearing level IV armor attacked the place where he was staying.

Apparently shotguns loaded with 1600 FPS slugs will shatter foreign made level IV armor plates...and the wearer of said plate can be put on the ground by the experience long enough to allow a followup shot to the CNS that proves definitive in stopping the threat. And this can be accomplished quickly enough that it can be repeated on the next couple of similarly armored bad guys coming up that stairwell.

In class I joke that it's unlikely that helicopters full of armored ninjas are going to break into your house so a shotgun will probably handle what you need it to handle.

The bizarre thing about training people to protect themselves is that something you say as a joke might actually come true. While there was no helicopter involved, a bunch of actual armored ninjas showed up intent on killing someone who had developed true proficiency with a shotgun and he managed to keep himself alive by using the light switch and an 870.

...and so I'll say again that if anyone in the world ever gets the notion to try and kill me, I pray to God they're fucking stupid enough to do it while I'm inside a typical residential structure when I have a shotgun handy.

How many rounds were required?

[DDTSGM]

Any idea on the specifics of the slugs used? Foster, Brenneke, or??

I was at one social event hosted by a medically retired LEO, and he brought out an expired vest, don't remember what level it was rated at, for us to try various loads on.

I shot it with my 4" S&W 629 and Federal 300 grain Castcore (factory hardcast LBT ish bullet) the vest stopped it but there was significant deformation, drove vest into wood post vest was mounted on.

One person shot it with some type of hand loaded 12 gauge slug, vest stopped it barely but pretty sure it would have caused broken bones on living target at minimum based on how far into the wood that load drove the vest.

One person shot it with AR and that zipped right through of course.

Wood may not be the best medium for comparison.

I've tested slugs on vests draped over unmounted used tires. The vest stops them and usually 'caves' in the treaded portion. Slug flattens to half-dollar size with fiber pattern imprint.

Definitely put you down. Pretty sure depth of compression combined with speed of compression would stop the old ticker if you hit in that area, otherwise pretty sure it would put you down long enough for the anchoring shots - if appropriate.

[Borderland]

Knock you on your ass for sure.

https://youtu.be/4qSVOZfp3R4?t=13

[TCinVA]

How many rounds were required?

This involved multiple people defending against entry at multiple points by multiple bad guys. But the 870's involved all handled the threats presented without the need for a reload.

It was extremely close quarters and on a couple of the threats the defenders aimed a little north of the plates with spectacularly definitive results.

[TCinVA]

On the topic of shotgun capacity and the real world...
Any idea on the specifics of the slugs used? Foster, Brenneke, or??

Federal Tru-Ball Tactical slugs advertised on the box as 1600 FPS.

Had I known that things were going to go down that way, I'd have given the individual involved the three sleeves of 1600 FPS Deep Penetrator slugs I have on hand. That or the hard cast Brenneke slugs likely would have gone through given the description of how the "armor" performed.

I shot it with my 4" S&W 629 and Federal 300 grain Castcore (factory hardcast LBT ish bullet) the vest stopped it but there was significant deformation, drove vest into wood post vest was mounted on.

One person shot it with some type of hand loaded 12 gauge slug, vest stopped it barely but pretty sure it would have caused broken bones on living target at minimum based on how far into the wood that load drove the vest.\\

It is highly likely the armor plates being used here were not quite up to western standards in terms of quality or reliability. That likely worked in favor of the defenders.

The sheer amount of blunt force trauma involved likely would have proved fatal on its own. The individual involved described jagged pieces of the plate being driven into the chest cavity.

In this weekend's Shotgun 360 course, we had the luxury of a couple of surplus armor plates provided by the range owner which I shot with 1600 FPS Federal PowerShok slugs. We attached them to steel targets with a void in the center using duct tape. The slugs were stopped on the plates, but especially on the thinner plate the amount of deformation that resulted would have likely proven debilitating or even fatal.

Of course, the point of the demonstration wasn't to crack the plate so much as to demonstrate to the class exactly how much energy an ounce going 1,600 FPS delivers at close range. The impact picked the steel target up and knocked the whole thing back on the ground about 6 inches from where it started.

To paraphrase something witty I saw from an individual who knows his shotguns, the fact that a slug didn't completely penetrate a plate doesn't matter much if you make the dude's plates clap together. And he ain't wrong.

[shootist26]

This involved multiple people defending against entry at multiple points by multiple bad guys. But the 870's involved all handled the threats presented without the need for a reload.

It was extremely close quarters and on a couple of the threats the defenders aimed a little north of the plates with spectacularly definitive results.

This incident occurred in the US?

[TCinVA]

This incident occurred in the US?

No.

...and per the individual's request, I can't get more specific than that.

[Dov]

This involved multiple people defending against entry at multiple points by multiple bad guys. But the 870's involved all handled the threats presented without the need for a reload.

It was extremely close quarters and on a couple of the threats the defenders aimed a little north of the plates with spectacularly definitive results.

I'm curious how many defenders w 870's there were vs number of badguys with AK's/whatever if you can divulge?

I've thought for a while, since bunch of riots in my state just couple/few years ago, that a group with multiple shotguns properly loaded backed by 1 or 2 rifles would be pretty well equipped for most actual vs fantasy problems based on how several groups here did vs looting and arson just by being viable presence even if the neighborhood defenders only displayed impact weapons. Some groups only had couple people with visible impact weapons.

[jgf]

Federal Tru-Ball Tactical slugs advertised on the box as 1600 FPS.

Had I known that things were going to go down that way, I'd have given the individual involved the three sleeves of 1600 FPS Deep Penetrator slugs I have on hand. That or the hard cast Brenneke slugs likely would have gone through given the description of how the "armor" performed.

I've not seen Deep Penetrator with 1600 fps (only 1350) anywhere. Are they no longer made?