Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

[shootist26]

They are running 1301 shotguns loaded with slugs inside structures because of concerns about overpenetration with rifles.

Am I missing something here? I thought regular slugs were the absolute worst for overpenetration issues? Are they using a boutique slug round or something?

[Doc_Glock]

Am I missing something here? I thought regular slugs were the absolute worst for overpenetration issues? Are they using a boutique slug round or something?

I would also like clarification on this? I also really like slugs for the shotgun, but not because I am concerned about over penetration or wall penetration.

[03RN]

The shotgun isn't as wide spread in policing today as in the past, but it's still out there doing work. In fact, one can argue that it's experiencing something of a renaissance in certain areas.

Along with that, the semi-automatic shotgun is starting to become more common...and that alone can potentially change the capacity equation a little bit.

A typical person operating a pump shotgun is going to take significant time to fire multiple shots. One shot a second seems to be pretty normal for your typical person struggling to run a pump. A very well trained shooter can easily get two shots per second off. Nutjobs like me who can fire almost 4 per second with a pump are pretty rare...not that it's terribly useful to shoot at that pace in the first place.

The Beretta 1301, though, cycles extremely fast and offers mild recoil. If you combine that with some good technique on the gun, you can end up with a shooter who is able to fire a powerful munition like a slug and still be looking through the sights at a bad guy who hasn't had a chance to fall down yet. I think that explains this shooting:



I happen to have a little bit of the backstory on this one.

LVMPD brought in Rob Haught to work with their instructors on shotgun training. As best I know, they teach Rob's recoil mitigation techniques to officers. They are running 1301 shotguns loaded with slugs inside structures because of concerns about overpenetration with rifles.

So what we see in the video is an officer armed with a fast-shooting, mildly recoiling semi-automatic shotgun who has probably been taught to use it pretty well. He is being advanced on with a knife and engages the suspect with a slug and very rapidly fires another shot because the suspect likely just hasn't fallen down yet. It's a perfectly justifiable shooting and if there's a dude that close to you who has already murdered someone, you should probably be shooting him pretty enthusiastically.

But it goes to show how larger round counts might emerge in situations where a trained shooter is using a semi-automatic shotgun. Not because the munitions are any less effective, but because the training and the guns make it possible to simply engage with another round or two in time frames that were beyond the reach of most people using pump guns.

I took a class with Louis Awerbuck in 2003 iirc with my m1014 and got pretty fast.

I could have easily engaged bad guys with multiple shots before they fell but did not. I had limited rounds in the gun and found follow up shots unnecessary unless it was a marginal hit. Reloading is a hassle enough without unnecessary shots.

[TCinVA]

Am I missing something here? I thought regular slugs were the absolute worst for overpenetration issues? Are they using a boutique slug round or something?

First you have to accept that police policies don't have to actually make sense in any objective fashion.

"Overpenetration" in the urban environment can mean more than just blowing through a dude and going on to hit whatever is behind him. Inside densely populated areas with relatively thin walls something with significantly lower velocity and a lot more surface area might be preferable as it will tend to stop in/on something a bit sooner.

When I see a 5.56 next to a 12 gauge slug I don't think "Behold the ounce and see that it has less potential for overpenetration!", but I ain't running police departments.

It could be as simple as the typical distance an unobstructed shot from either can go. Shotgun munitions in general will travel about half the distance of a rifle round and that alone can be the basis of a policy decision.

Personally I'd rather have buckshot inside a structure, but I'll venture a guess they don't allow that because of stray pellets.

This wouldn't be the first department that's essentially policy'd their people almost entirely out of long gun access for dangerous situations like this.

[feudist]

First you have to accept that police policies don't have to actually make sense in any objective fashion.

"Overpenetration" in the urban environment can mean more than just blowing through a dude and going on to hit whatever is behind him. Inside densely populated areas with relatively thin walls something with significantly lower velocity and a lot more surface area might be preferable as it will tend to stop in/on something a bit sooner.

When I see a 5.56 next to a 12 gauge slug I don't think "Behold the ounce and see that it has less potential for overpenetration!", but I ain't running police departments.

It could be as simple as the typical distance an unobstructed shot from either can go. Shotgun munitions in general will travel about half the distance of a rifle round and that alone can be the basis of a policy decision.

Personally I'd rather have buckshot inside a structure, but I'll venture a guess they don't allow that because of stray pellets.

This wouldn't be the first department that's essentially policy'd their people almost entirely out of long gun access for dangerous situations like this.

Holy shit, THIS.

Let me quote it again:

"First you have to accept that police policies don't have to actually make sense in any objective fashion."

[Rex G]

Does barricading all friendly folks in a room, and training a shotgun at the door seem viable to you guys? Or are we hunting down the multiple badguys in our home?

Default should, ideally, be Choice A, unless the house has been set afire. Just keep in mind that a first-responder good guy, or a random neighbor, who happens to secretly be former British SAS, just might arrive at that door. (That seemed to have happened, at a burglary-in-progress that I ran, once upon a time, though he was an old chap, who arrived with a walking stick, as his only weapon.)

More thoughts:

If choosing B, the positions of the friendlies, inside the safe room, MUST be remembered at ALL times. Walls should not be trusted to stop your outgoing fire.

If choosing B, keep in mind that armed friendlies, who remain barricaded, can present a two-way friendly-fire risk. Walls do not, necessarily, stop things.

If choosing B, consider the risk of your being out-maneuvered, perhaps presenting a situation of a bad guy being in line with your no-shoots. Maneuver accordingly!

If choosing B, consider that a friendly, armed or not, may lack the discipline to stay put, in the designated safe room.

The bad guys just might set fire to your home, so, yes, keep that in mind. (Happened here, just a couple of neighborhoods to our southwest, recently.)

My brain is wanting to take an afternoon siesta, in spite of that coffee I am drinking, so, I am sure I am forgetting some obvious things.

Edited to add: As BBI tells us, DO NOT get entangled, with a bad guy, while shotgunfighting.

[03RN]

I think barricading everyone in a room and waiting is not what I would do.

Besides armor there is nothing bullet proof in my rooms

If I am in a gunfight I want to maneuver.

If I start shooting I can expect people to shoot back. I don't want to be drawing fire to my wife and kids.

If I'm waiting then the bad guys are dictating the direction of the fight.

[03RN]

Edited to add: As BBI tells us, DO NOT get entangled, with a bad guy, while shotgunfighting.

I remember running into the pit with a pugil stick and just before I reached my opponent I threw my stick at him and dove into a double leg take down. Worked beautifully.

[HCM]

First you have to accept that police policies don't have to actually make sense in any objective fashion.

"Overpenetration" in the urban environment can mean more than just blowing through a dude and going on to hit whatever is behind him. Inside densely populated areas with relatively thin walls something with significantly lower velocity and a lot more surface area might be preferable as it will tend to stop in/on something a bit sooner.

When I see a 5.56 next to a 12 gauge slug I don't think "Behold the ounce and see that it has less potential for overpenetration!", but I ain't running police departments.

It could be as simple as the typical distance an unobstructed shot from either can go. Shotgun munitions in general will travel about half the distance of a rifle round and that alone can be the basis of a policy decision.

Personally I'd rather have buckshot inside a structure, but I'll venture a guess they don't allow that because of stray pellets.

This wouldn't be the first department that's essentially policy'd their people almost entirely out of long gun access for dangerous situations like this.

Re: Police policy - in addition to LVMPD’s “no rifles indoors” policy, apparently they also have a “no rifles on the strip” policy, which is why you see so many officers with just pistols and 870s during the music festival shooting. I’m told the casinos don’t want cops with AR’s on the strip because it will s are customers and the casinos get what they want.

[Rex G]

I think barricading everyone in a room and waiting is not what I would do.

Besides armor there is nothing bullet proof in my rooms

If I am in a gunfight I want to maneuver.

If I start shooting I can expect people to shoot back. I don't want to be drawing fire to my wife and kids.

If I'm waiting then the bad guys are dictating the direction of the fight.

Being mobile is exactly what my part of Plan A is, too. Multiple adults, being in widely separated parts of the house, is not conducive to all trying to gather in one “safe” room. Each of the adults is capable of gunfighting. There are no minor children, who must be gathered together, for protection. Of course, being mobile does not preclude the option of waiting behind a selected point of hard cover, or in concealment, as deemed necessary for the situation, at a moment in time.