Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

[Unobtanium]

It's interesting to read the variety of people's possible uses for a shotgun particularly those gearing for "inside the house use" say barricaded in a room.
I've grabbed & gone outside with a 12 gauge hundreds of times over the years. When the dogs talk, I listen

Usually it's small predators (mostly coyotes), sometimes it's a neighbors bull, once it was 3 youths, sometimes javelina, bobcats, lost hippies, every few years groups of feral dogs, or city people letting their dogs run free when they stop. There's about a zero percent chance of me using a 12 ga. inside the house, I've used one many times outside so my world revolves around that. I hike with one strapped to my ruck, based out of my house so weight is not an issue, I load extra weight in my ruck if it's too light.

OP would probably consider me absurd or Gecko 45 like, but ammo is my friend in my circumstances.
The only time I've called the cops was the 3 junior hoodlums and 2 deputies arrived well over an hour later, I think it was 1:45. So we're pretty much left to our own devices.

I train to use my gauge out to 80m or so. This is about the limit for the low recoil slugs I prefer. To use it further, and I have dabbled there, I switch to Fiocchi Aero slugs. I can go 10/10 on 2/3 IPSC steel at 100m with them. Buckshot, Ive patterned out to 100m as well (1/3 shells puts 1 pellet on 2/3 ipsc, lol!) and of course at near every increment closer. I am comfortable throughout my shotguns operation envelope. However, I recognize that past 50m, while it will easily do work, my sbr 5.56 is the more appropriate tool. I keep 5 rounds of Le133 in the weapon, and 6 rounds of le127rs on the side.

[JTMcC]

I train to use my gauge out to 80m or so. This is about the limit for the low recoil slugs I prefer. To use it further, and I have dabbled there, I switch to Fiocchi Aero slugs. I can go 10/10 on 2/3 IPSC steel at 100m with them. Buckshot, Ive patterned out to 100m as well (1/3 shells puts 1 pellet on 2/3 ipsc, lol!) and of course at near every increment closer. I am comfortable throughout my shotguns operation envelope. However, I recognize that past 50m, while it will easily do work, my sbr 5.56 is the more appropriate tool. I keep 5 rounds of Le133 in the weapon, and 6 rounds of le127rs on the side.

Yea I'm in the "how far will it reach out" crowd as well, life would be simpler if the length of a hallway was my outer range of use.
During the daylight I can choose shotgun or rifle. At night a 12 gauge rules for me.

[Unobtanium]

Yea I'm in the "how far will it reach out" crowd as well, life would be simpler if the length of a hallway was my outer range of use.
During the daylight I can choose shotgun or rifle. At night a 12 gauge rules for me.

Same.

[HCM]

Same.

Have you shot the shotgun much under NVG?

Had a chance to try it during hog hunting thinking 12 gauge would be a great NVG hog hammer. IME the subsequent cloud of unburnt powder which I never really notice in daylight (except on a firing line with multiple shotguns) makes it sub optimal. Like a muzzle loader.

[Unobtanium]

Have you shot the shotgun much under NVG?

Had a chance to try it during hog hunting thinking 12 gauge would be a great NVG hog hammer. IME the subsequent cloud of unburnt powder which I never really notice in daylight (except on a firing line with multiple shotguns) makes it sub optimal. Like a muzzle loader.

I am using LE133 and LE127RS, and don't notice any issues at all under NVG with it. Here is a video my Dad took with his Father's Day present (Sionyx). 5 rounds of LE133 followed by reload from side saddle with LE127RS.


What I have had issues with is 5.56 suppressed just using white light. Here I am at VTAC Nightfighter 2015. I was unable to take some shots at the 50-80 yard distance until the particulate cleared some, as you will note I flash the light, then do not fire, then repeat in a few seconds once cleared and fire.:

[HCM]

I am using LE133 and LE127RS, and don't notice any issues at all under NVG with it. Here is a video my Dad took with his Father's Day present (Sionyx). 5 rounds of LE133 followed by reload from side saddle with LE127RS.


What I have had issues with is 5.56 suppressed just using white light. Here I am at VTAC Nightfighter 2015. I was unable to take some shots at the 50-80 yard distance until the particulate cleared some, as you will note I flash the light, then do not fire, then repeat in a few seconds once cleared and fire.:

Are you using IR illumination or just ambient light ?

[Unobtanium]

Are you using IR illumination or just ambient light ?

Just ambient light. I haven't really found a need/use for illumination much except to help detect animal's eyes reflecting light. I am using decent tubes (L3 filmless, the worst tube in that bino is 36.9SNR, 0.7 EBI), and that helps a lot.

That was taken Friday the 29th at 4am roughly. New moon that night. Some cloud cover. Bortle 3 sky. Neighbor's house had some lights on but they didn't really illuminate the pasture any, that's just starlight from spots between the clouds and skyglow of Bortle 3 sky (pretty dark).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bortle_scale


I do have the gun set up for illumination though, and it can help sometimes. I just typically don't need it after the PID phase.



I use an M600V. WAAAYYYY overpowered, but it is what it is. Those deer are at about 80 yards, treeline is around 150 yards.

[HCM]

Just ambient light. I haven't really found a need/use for illumination much except to help detect animal's eyes reflecting light. I am using decent tubes (L3 filmless, the worst tube in that bino is 36.9SNR, 0.7 EBI), and that helps a lot.

That was taken Friday the 29th at 4am roughly. New moon that night. Some cloud cover. Bortle 3 sky. Neighbor's house had some lights on but they didn't really illuminate the pasture any, that's just starlight from spots between the clouds and skyglow of Bortle 3 sky (pretty dark).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bortle_scale


I do have the gun set up for illumination though, and it can help sometimes. I just typically don't need it after the PID phase.



I use an M600V. WAAAYYYY overpowered, but it is what it is. Those deer are at about 80 yards, treeline is around 150 yards.

So the area I hunt in is wooded - supplemental illumination is a must. I think the IR is reflecting off the shotgun smoke the same as what you described with white light and suppressed carbine, only 12 gauge generates more smoke than 5.56.

[Unobtanium]

So the area I hunt in is wooded - supplemental illumination is a must. I think the IR is reflecting off the shotgun smoke the same as what you described with white light and suppressed carbine, only 12 gauge generates more smoke than 5.56.

My experience is that pretty much anything is going to generate some annoyance once smoke gets in the air. So far even on a moonless night I can navigate and engage things under canopy. I prefer not to use illumination especially under canopy because all of the leaves and brush will throw it back at you and ABC the tubes down and you can't "see through the foliage" like you can without that going on. I'd probably use IR to PID and then engage without it. The woods are so thick that I couldn't be very effective using illumination to shoot anything beyond bad breath distance.

[TCinVA]

The shotgun isn't as wide spread in policing today as in the past, but it's still out there doing work. In fact, one can argue that it's experiencing something of a renaissance in certain areas.

Along with that, the semi-automatic shotgun is starting to become more common...and that alone can potentially change the capacity equation a little bit.

A typical person operating a pump shotgun is going to take significant time to fire multiple shots. One shot a second seems to be pretty normal for your typical person struggling to run a pump. A very well trained shooter can easily get two shots per second off. Nutjobs like me who can fire almost 4 per second with a pump are pretty rare...not that it's terribly useful to shoot at that pace in the first place.

The Beretta 1301, though, cycles extremely fast and offers mild recoil. If you combine that with some good technique on the gun, you can end up with a shooter who is able to fire a powerful munition like a slug and still be looking through the sights at a bad guy who hasn't had a chance to fall down yet. I think that explains this shooting:



I happen to have a little bit of the backstory on this one.

LVMPD brought in Rob Haught to work with their instructors on shotgun training. As best I know, they teach Rob's recoil mitigation techniques to officers. They are running 1301 shotguns loaded with slugs inside structures because of concerns about overpenetration with rifles.

So what we see in the video is an officer armed with a fast-shooting, mildly recoiling semi-automatic shotgun who has probably been taught to use it pretty well. He is being advanced on with a knife and engages the suspect with a slug and very rapidly fires another shot because the suspect likely just hasn't fallen down yet. It's a perfectly justifiable shooting and if there's a dude that close to you who has already murdered someone, you should probably be shooting him pretty enthusiastically.

But it goes to show how larger round counts might emerge in situations where a trained shooter is using a semi-automatic shotgun. Not because the munitions are any less effective, but because the training and the guns make it possible to simply engage with another round or two in time frames that were beyond the reach of most people using pump guns.