Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

[Cory]

I'd like to get a frame of reference so I know how to evaluate the information you guys are providing.

Can either of you reference a single home defense shooting where it required a hit with more than two 12G shell of 00 buck to stop someone?

Can either of you provide 2 instances where it required more than a single hit with 00 buck on a person to stop them, in any scenerio?

Does barricading all friendly folks in a room, and training a shotgun at the door seem viable to you guys? Or are we hunting down the multiple badguys in our home?

What low light training courses have either of you attended? How many times have you practiced room clearing dark areas, or defending them? Does your house have light switches?

Alot of what I'm asking is not because I truly need the answers. The info being put out is lowest common denominator stuff. It's rumormill hearsay stuff that hasn't proved out in practice. Guys like TCinVA have had more time behind a 12G than most humans. Several members here are respected trainers who have put the 12 to use on folks who needed it. More than a passing number here have taken lowlight classes. Some here teach them. Many of us have gleaned a ton of information by reading the thoughts and perspectives of these respected members. Some of the stuff in this thread is more worthy of the drivel on other forums. Please seriously think about who might be reading what you're posting. We've lost to many SMEs to constantly battling the same poor info.

Half this shit isn't related to the 1301 either. I'm guilty of that myself. Perhaps ammo managment in general would make a good thread of it's own. Classes, HD, hunting... all have unique needs in that regard and have different options available. I'd be happy to read the specifics and nuance of each.

[RancidSumo]

FWIW, if I get into a protracted gunfight in my house, I plan to turn on the lights.

[OldManClemens]

I'd like to get a frame of reference so I know how to evaluate the information you guys are providing.

Can either of you reference a single home defense shooting where it required a hit with more than two 12G shell of 00 buck to stop someone?

Can either of you provide 2 instances where it required more than a single hit with 00 buck on a person to stop them, in any scenerio?

Does barricading all friendly folks in a room, and training a shotgun at the door seem viable to you guys? Or are we hunting down the multiple badguys in our home?

What low light training courses have either of you attended? How many times have you practiced room clearing dark areas, or defending them? Does your house have light switches?

Alot of what I'm asking is not because I truly need the answers. The info being put out is lowest common denominator stuff. It's rumormill hearsay stuff that hasn't proved out in practice. Guys like TCinVA have had more time behind a 12G than most humans. Several members here are respected trainers who have put the 12 to use on folks who needed it. More than a passing number here have taken lowlight classes. Some here teach them. Many of us have gleaned a ton of information by reading the thoughts and perspectives of these respected members. Some of the stuff in this thread is more worthy of the drivel on other forums. Please seriously think about who might be reading what you're posting. We've lost to many SMEs to constantly battling the same poor info.

Half this shit isn't related to the 1301 either. I'm guilty of that myself. Perhaps ammo managment in general would make a good thread of it's own. Classes, HD, hunting... all have unique needs in that regard and have different options available. I'd be happy to read the specifics and nuance of each.

I thought we were talking about classes?

But if you want to talk about home defense situations, ok. Why do people have multiple full magazines of AR mags on hand? Why do peopel have multiple 15+ round handgun mags on hand? I just understand this need or desire to want less ammo on hand for a shotgun while simultaneously justifying having scores more ammo on hand for other firearms the are being used for the same purpose.

Also, sure, in most cases one shot of )) buck will stop someone. But what if they are wearing body armor? What if you miss, and miss again because you just browned your shorts and your heart is pounding so loud can't hear anything else?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I dont think the other person nor myself is saying the suggestions we made are the absolute be all, end all that everyone must do otherwise they're wrong, but it does seem like you are a bit irked because you maybe have a different opinion. That's more and issue you ahve with yourself. Also, nobody else has to justify or validate any of their opinions to you or anyone else for validation. If you don't liek what I or someone else said there's nothing any of us can do to make you feel better about it. Also, I never said I was someone who has done extensive training or think I'm anything special, but again, you seem to have issue with that as well. Just sounds like every other firearms forum where every thread seems to turn into the proverbial pissing match of who knows more and who's pecker is bigger and who can puff their chest out more than the other guy. I kind of though this place was different but was probably wrong about that.

Thats all I have to say and don't think I need to justify every option I have or everything I've written to a complete stranger who demands it. But again, thanks for a great thread where I learned a lot. Seems liek that's run it's course and don't really see the need to be a part of this anymore, but you're also more than free to do your own research and get the answers to your own questions instead of making the rest of us do your leg work.

[StraitR]

I thought we were talking about classes?

But if you want to talk about home defense situations, ok. Why do people have multiple full magazines of AR mags on hand? Why do peopel have multiple 15+ round handgun mags on hand? I just understand this need or desire to want less ammo on hand for a shotgun while simultaneously justifying having scores more ammo on hand for other firearms the are being used for the same purpose.

Also, sure, in most cases one shot of )) buck will stop someone. But what if they are wearing body armor? What if you miss, and miss again because you just browned your shorts and your heart is pounding so loud can't hear anything else?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I dont think the other person nor myself is saying the suggestions we made are the absolute be all, end all that everyone must do otherwise they're wrong, but it does seem like you are a bit irked because you maybe have a different opinion. That's more and issue you ahve with yourself. Also, nobody else has to justify or validate any of their opinions to you or anyone else for validation. If you don't liek what I or someone else said there's nothing any of us can do to make you feel better about it. Also, I never said I was someone who has done extensive training or think I'm anything special, but again, you seem to have issue with that as well. Just sounds like every other firearms forum where every thread seems to turn into the proverbial pissing match of who knows more and who's pecker is bigger and who can puff their chest out more than the other guy. I kind of though this place was different but was probably wrong about that.

Thats all I have to say and don't think I need to justify every option I have or everything I've written to a complete stranger who demands it. But again, thanks for a great thread where I learned a lot. Seems liek that's run it's course and don't really see the need to be a part of this anymore, but you're also more than free to do your own research and get the answers to your own questions instead of making the rest of us do your leg work.

You're new here. It’s not personal, we just want to understand where you’re coming from. It seems you’ve gotten your feelings hurt when asked to quantify and qualify your opinions. Anytime you share an opinion that seems contrary to what would be considered “meta” on a subject here, you’re going to be stood up on it. Not to crap on you, but to give you a chance to explain. If you have/had something to share that others have not considered, it’s welcomed, but it won’t be blindly accepted without some explanation. Believe it or not, the vast majority of people here just want to learn (more) and get better at all things shooting. That includes Cory.

The other small minority come for the information but burnout when they start to participate and get challenged.

[Dorsai]

I'd like to get a frame of reference so I know how to evaluate the information you guys are providing.

Can either of you reference a single home defense shooting where it required a hit with more than two 12G shell of 00 buck to stop someone?

Can either of you provide 2 instances where it required more than a single hit with 00 buck on a person to stop them, in any scenerio?

Does barricading all friendly folks in a room, and training a shotgun at the door seem viable to you guys? Or are we hunting down the multiple badguys in our home?

What low light training courses have either of you attended? How many times have you practiced room clearing dark areas, or defending them? Does your house have light switches?

Alot of what I'm asking is not because I truly need the answers. The info being put out is lowest common denominator stuff. It's rumormill hearsay stuff that hasn't proved out in practice. Guys like TCinVA have had more time behind a 12G than most humans. Several members here are respected trainers who have put the 12 to use on folks who needed it. More than a passing number here have taken lowlight classes. Some here teach them. Many of us have gleaned a ton of information by reading the thoughts and perspectives of these respected members. Some of the stuff in this thread is more worthy of the drivel on other forums. Please seriously think about who might be reading what you're posting. We've lost to many SMEs to constantly battling the same poor info.

Half this shit isn't related to the 1301 either. I'm guilty of that myself. Perhaps ammo managment in general would make a good thread of it's own. Classes, HD, hunting... all have unique needs in that regard and have different options available. I'd be happy to read the specifics and nuance of each.

I have taken multiple 4 day shotgun classes. They did include lowlight. No, I can't give you home defense/invasion statistics on how many invaders and how many rounds were needed. One of your assumptions in your questions is that you won't miss. You constantly ask about needing more than 1 or 2 hits with buckshot, but it isn't just how many times you need to hit them, it's how many rounds do you need to fire to get those 1 or 2 hits. Is a double barrel all that's needed since you're assuming one, maybe 2 intruders, no misses, 1 rd of buckshot each?

I don't intend to sound harsh and I'm not telling you what you should do in your own home, your own situation, your own jurisdiction, etc. If I disagree with you, hopefully I've raised something you haven't considered and it makes you think more. If you have already considered it and made your decisions, fine. I don't live your life and you don't live mine.

Remember this, statistics don't apply to individuals, just large groups. Odds may be low for the group, but if you're the individual who gets the bad roll of the dice, being prepared for more than the statistical average can mean your life and/or the lives of people you love.

I'm going to put a link and a quote from a recent article down below for just that purpose. Something that is a staple of Hollywood action movies, but never happens in real life...until it does. It doesn't cost much money to add a side saddle and spare ammo on the butt if you want. In my house, the extra weight doesn't matter either. I've never had to shoot someone, shotgun or otherwise. I don't want to and I think it very likely that when I leave this world, I still won't have. But hopefully, I'll have been prepared.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-sex-ring.html

Father 'killed his daughter's boyfriend, 19, by stuffing him into the trunk of a car and repeatedly stabbing him' after discovering he'd sold her to a sex trafficking ring: Body was found after a year

John Eisenman, 60, is charged with first-degree murder and jailed in Spokane
Aaron Sorenson's rotting corpse was found in car's trunk in the city last month
He allegedly sex trafficked Eisenman's juvenile daughter into Seattle last year
Eisenman rescued daughter Oct. 2020 and then went after Sorenson, cops say
He stabbed the teen to death, stuffed him car trunk in Nov. 2020, it is alleged
Sorenson's body was only discovered last month, leading to Eisenman's arrest



A father killed his daughter's 19-year-old boyfriend by repeatedly stabbing him and then stuffing him inside a car trunk after finding he'd sold her into a sex trafficking ring, detectives have revealed.

John Eisenman, 60, was charged with first-degree murder and is being held on a $1 million bond at Spokane County Jail in Washington.

Aaron Sorenson's rotting corpse was found in the trunk of an abandoned car on East Everett Avenue in Spokane last month, police said on Monday. Detectives believe he was killed in November last year.

Eisenman discovered in October of that year that his juvenile daughter had been sex trafficked into Seattle by Sorenson for $1,000, according to a police press release.

He was able to rescue the girl from the city and bring her back to Spokane that month.

He then learned that Sorenson was going to be at an address in Airway Heights so he drove there and waited for the 19-year-old to arrive.

'During that encounter Eisenman abducted the victim, tying him up and placing him in the trunk of a vehicle. Eisenman subsequently assaulted the victim by hitting him in the head with a cinder block and then stabbed him repeatedly, causing his death,' police said.

'After the homicide, Eisenman drove the vehicle to a remote area in North Spokane County and abandoned the car with the body still inside.'

The car was left in the countryside until last month when someone drove it to Spokane and left it on East Everett Avenue. Officials said they do not believe that person knew there was a corpse in the back.

The body was found when people began searching through the vehicle.

Amber Hellmann said her boyfriend and another friend said they noticed the car had been there for a while.

'They were just looking around and for some reason, they decided to look in the trunk and all I hear is, 'there's a body,'' she told KHQ-TV.

Police said Eisenman was arrested and surrendered to officers without incident. Prior to his detention he had no recent violent criminal history.

[Phaedrus]

What low light training courses have either of you attended? How many times have you practiced room clearing dark areas, or defending them? Does your house have light switches?

Not to belabor this because I've already said it once a few posts back, but this thread is about the 1301 Tactical, not necessarily about low light classes or defensive shooting statistics, so I'll say it again- if you ever get 20 miles from the nearest paved road into the mountains of Montana you won't find any light switches. Between sundown (roughly 6:30 pm this time of year) til sun-up the only light you will have is whatever you brought with you. So far I have not taken a low light class although I'd like to, but I have used firearms at night with handheld lights and WMLs. Feel free to not use one but bear in mind that not everyone with a 1301 is a city slicker.

[Ed L]

I'd like to get a frame of reference so I know how to evaluate the information you guys are providing.

Can either of you reference a single home defense shooting where it required a hit with more than two 12G shell of 00 buck to stop someone?

Can either of you provide 2 instances where it required more than a single hit with 00 buck on a person to stop them, in any scenerio? .

There are a number of home invasions that feature multiple invaders and multiple armed invaders. When you combine the possibility of multiple home invaders, with the possibility of missed shots and attackers that may even need to be shot more than once to stop them, having a shotgun that can be fired 5-7 times before you need to reload seems like a very good idea. The late firearms instructor and NYPD and USMC veteran Pat Rogers relayed an account of being present in a situation where New York City's emergency service unit blasted a knife armed emotionally disturbed person in the chest with a shotgun with buckshot and his reaction was just to roar at them. I've heard of other such situations as well as situations where more than a round or two were needed to be fired. Most home defense shootings that you hear about are not that specific with regards to the actual number of shots fired, specific weapon or model used, or the loads used, etc. If you look at most accounts you see terms used like "several" for the number of rounds fired, and the gun is usually generically described as a shotgun or handgun-- unless it is an AR 15 or an AK, or unless the shooting attracts a lot of attention because of something the homeowner did wrong that got him in trouble. It doesn't say that most media is interested in providing detailed information about defensive gun uses compared to criminal uses.

Here's one specific situation I can find that mentions a shotgun fired with multiple shots against multiple people:

From American Rifleman's Armed Citizen Column in the 1/1/1997 issue.

The Democrat and Chronicle, Rochester, NY, 8/27/96

"A Rochester, New York, homeowner grabbed his shotgun after witnessing a gang of men armed with guns and clad in dark hooded sweatshirts and pants storm a neighboring duplex. After hitting the man's neighbors, the roving band of marauders descended upon the armed citizen, who was determined to protect himself and his children. As the assailants forced their way into his home, the man opened fire, trading shots with as many as seven suspects. The man was able to successfully fend off the attack, killing two of the intruders and wounding a third. Police were still looking for the other suspects. Police were searching for links between this attack and similar home invasions earlier in the summer that had left two citizens dead. The man's neighbors were considering following his lead and arming themselves for protection."

This may go against the common grain, and this is just me speculating, but if I were in a home defense situation right fired a few rounds of a shotgun I would be more concerned with other hostiles that might be in the house that I might not have seen that might either try to pop out and shoot me or rush me and grab my the gun. Thus, I would likely keep the gun ready while scanning, and can't see myself using a sidesaddle or butt cuff to reload until I was sure it was safe to do so. That's why I'd rather have more rounds on board as long as it didn't make the gun overly long, or overly heavy. If given the choice between a Mossberg 590/a1 with an 18 1/2 inch barrel and a six round magazine or 20 inch barrel with an eight round magazine I would probably select the one with the 18 1/2 inch barrel and the six round magazine. Ideally I like an 18 inch or an 18 1/2 inch barrel with a magazine extension that's no longer than the barrel. I would be fine with the 1301 with a one round extension. I actually like the looks of it — though aesthetics isn't really a good reason to choose a firearm.

I'm going to do a follow-up post with the 1301 compared to other home defense shotguns that I own.

[Ed L]

To clarify, and my last post I wrote: "This may go against the common grain, and this is just me speculating, but if I were in a home defense situation right fired a few rounds of a shotgun I would be more concerned with other hostiles that might be in the house that I might not have seen that might either try to pop out and shoot me or rush me and grab my the gun. Thus, I would likely keep the gun ready while scanning, and can't see myself using a sidesaddle or butt cuff to reload until I was sure it was safe to do so. "

When I wrote the above sentence I didn't mean to imply that other people or trainers were suggesting tactical loading of the shotgun before it was safe to do so, and I am sorry if it came off that way.

Bellow is a picture of my Beretta 1301 between my 1982 vintage Remington 870 Wingmaster with an 18" barrel and a a two-round magazine extension, and a Benelli super 90 M1 with a 19.75" barrel. I know the lighting isn't the best, but by the time I got home from work and dug two of the guns out of the safe this was the lighting that I had to work with.

I think I bought the Remington 870 in 1982 when I lived in New York City. At that time I was not 21 so I did not have a handgun permit, but only a long arm permit. Yes, you needed a permit to own a long arm in NYC-- it's been required there since 1968. But as time went on it became much more restrictive in regards to what you can own and how often you could buy long arms. I immediately added to round extended magazine to the 870. The Remington 870 replaced a Remington 1100 which proved to be unreliable. One time I took the 1100 shooting and it went click instead of bang. For whatever reason the 1100 would suddenly not fire if the fore end was tightened all the way, but would it fire if it was a little bit loose. This was quite disconcerting considering that at one time the 1100 was kept loaded as my home defense gun when it was one of three guns that I owned at the time--along with a Sako .270. and a Ruger 10/22. I sent the 1100 back to Remington, got it repaired, testfired it, and then traded it in with some cash for the new Remington 870.

To the left is a Benelli Super 90 with a 19.75" barrel and a 7 round extended magazine. This was the hot semiauto shotgun in the 1990s. I think I would sacrifice one round for a shorter 18" barrel and a shorter magazine, but this was the only way it came at the time and I got it for a decent price in the early 1990s. I consider it a little bit longish, but I always found that it ran well even with low recoil buck. But I think the low recoil buck came out or became available after I had at least 100-200 rounds through it. The clamp that clamped the barrel to the magazine wound up breaking. I didn't replace it because I found when it was properly tensioned it actually made the shotgun pattern a significant amount to the side at 25 yards, maybe even at 50 feet.

The Beretta 1301's Magpul stock is set with just one spacer and it. So I imagine the length of pulls is about 12.75." I purchased the Beretta 1301 in 2019. It was usable with the stock that it came with but I wanted something that was a bit shorter and had a thicker and wider recoil pad. I read up about it quite a bit here before I bought it. The Remington 870 in the picture has a length of pull of about 13 1/2 inches, and the Benelli I believe is a tad longer.

[Cory]

I have taken multiple 4 day shotgun classes. They did include lowlight. No, I can't give you home defense/invasion statistics on how many invaders and how many rounds were needed. One of your assumptions in your questions is that you won't miss. You constantly ask about needing more than 1 or 2 hits with buckshot, but it isn't just how many times you need to hit them, it's how many rounds do you need to fire to get those 1 or 2 hits. Is a double barrel all that's needed since you're assuming one, maybe 2 intruders, no misses, 1 rd of buckshot each?

I don't intend to sound harsh and I'm not telling you what you should do in your own home, your own situation, your own jurisdiction, etc. If I disagree with you, hopefully I've raised something you haven't considered and it makes you think more. If you have already considered it and made your decisions, fine. I don't live your life and you don't live mine.

Remember this, statistics don't apply to individuals, just large groups. Odds may be low for the group, but if you're the individual who gets the bad roll of the dice, being prepared for more than the statistical average can mean your life and/or the lives of people you love.

I'm going to put a link and a quote from a recent article down below for just that purpose. Something that is a staple of Hollywood action movies, but never happens in real life...until it does. It doesn't cost much money to add a side saddle and spare ammo on the butt if you want. In my house, the extra weight doesn't matter either. I've never had to shoot someone, shotgun or otherwise. I don't want to and I think it very likely that when I leave this world, I still won't have. But hopefully, I'll have been prepared.

Exactly the type of response I actually hoped for. My 1301 has a nordic extension and an Aridus side saddle, because I definitely want to inceease my odds if I need to use it. My point wasn't to say you'll never need more rounds or never miss.

WTF happened to the 1301T thread? I swear it was here just yesterday.

Apologies. I definitely deserve some of that blame.

Not to belabor this because I've already said it once a few posts back, but this thread is about the 1301 Tactical, not necessarily about low light classes or defensive shooting statistics, so I'll say it again- if you ever get 20 miles from the nearest paved road into the mountains of Montana you won't find any light switches. Between sundown (roughly 6:30 pm this time of year) til sun-up the only light you will have is whatever you brought with you. So far I have not taken a low light class although I'd like to, but I have used firearms at night with handheld lights and WMLs. Feel free to not use one but bear in mind that not everyone with a 1301 is a city slicker.

Another reason the thread should be about the 1301 as intended. Again, I no doubt own some of that blame.

There are a number of home invasions that feature multiple invaders and multiple armed invaders. When you combine the possibility of multiple home invaders, with the possibility of missed shots and attackers that may even need to be shot more than once to stop them, having a shotgun that can be fired 5-7 times before you need to reload seems like a very good idea. The late firearms instructor and NYPD and USMC veteran Pat Rogers relayed an account of being present in a situation where New York City's emergency service unit blasted a knife armed emotionally disturbed person in the chest with a shotgun with buckshot and his reaction was just to roar at them. I've heard of other such situations as well as situations where more than a round or two were needed to be fired. Most home defense shootings that you hear about are not that specific with regards to the actual number of shots fired, specific weapon or model used, or the loads used, etc. If you look at most accounts you see terms used like "several" for the number of rounds fired, and the gun is usually generically described as a shotgun or handgun-- unless it is an AR 15 or an AK, or unless the shooting attracts a lot of attention because of something the homeowner did wrong that got him in trouble. It doesn't say that most media is interested in providing detailed information about defensive gun uses compared to criminal uses.

Here's one specific situation I can find that mentions a shotgun fired with multiple shots against multiple people:

From American Rifleman's Armed Citizen Column in the 1/1/1997 issue.

The Democrat and Chronicle, Rochester, NY, 8/27/96

"A Rochester, New York, homeowner grabbed his shotgun after witnessing a gang of men armed with guns and clad in dark hooded sweatshirts and pants storm a neighboring duplex. After hitting the man's neighbors, the roving band of marauders descended upon the armed citizen, who was determined to protect himself and his children. As the assailants forced their way into his home, the man opened fire, trading shots with as many as seven suspects. The man was able to successfully fend off the attack, killing two of the intruders and wounding a third. Police were still looking for the other suspects. Police were searching for links between this attack and similar home invasions earlier in the summer that had left two citizens dead. The man's neighbors were considering following his lead and arming themselves for protection."

This may go against the common grain, and this is just me speculating, but if I were in a home defense situation right fired a few rounds of a shotgun I would be more concerned with other hostiles that might be in the house that I might not have seen that might either try to pop out and shoot me or rush me and grab my the gun. Thus, I would likely keep the gun ready while scanning, and can't see myself using a sidesaddle or butt cuff to reload until I was sure it was safe to do so. That's why I'd rather have more rounds on board as long as it didn't make the gun overly long, or overly heavy. If given the choice between a Mossberg 590/a1 with an 18 1/2 inch barrel and a six round magazine or 20 inch barrel with an eight round magazine I would probably select the one with the 18 1/2 inch barrel and the six round magazine. Ideally I like an 18 inch or an 18 1/2 inch barrel with a magazine extension that's no longer than the barrel. I would be fine with the 1301 with a one round extension. I actually like the looks of it — though aesthetics isn't really a good reason to choose a firearm.

I'm going to do a follow-up post with the 1301 compared to other home defense shotguns that I own.

I've never heard that Pat Rodgers story before. I have no doubt it's true considering the source. It's the first time I've ever heard of someone getting a solid hit with 00 buck, and the person not immediately being out of the fight.

Multiple attackers certainly could happen, and certainly could require multiple shots. I have a nordic extension on my 1301 that gives me a little extra, and an aridus side saddle as well.

I didn't mean to make quite that much stir with my post. Posts about needing a butt cuff and a side saddle both for anything but a class, or "dazzling" a bad guy with a light to make it hard for him to aim... that crap reaks of misinformation. With the absolute devestatingly effectivness of 12G we get into fantasy land pretty fast with needing 20 damn shells. And lights aren't used to mess up the bad guys aim. They're to light what you can't see so you can shoot it. While the thread was absolutely not about any of that, it struck me as pretty off base to not address. Guess I was wrong.

[WobblyPossum]

@Cory, I can think of another couple of examples.

I believe that one of Scott Reitz’s shootings involved using a shotgun against a suspect seated at a table during the execution of a search warrant. The suspect reached for a gun on the table and Scott shot him, almost amputating the arm reaching for the gun. The suspect then began reaching for the gun with his remaining arm and had to be shot again. This one was detailed in his The Art of Modern Gunfighting book but it’s been a little bit since I’ve read it so I might not have the details 100% correct. I also remember reading about a NYPD Stakeout Squad shooting in which a suspect needed multiple rounds in the torso from a shotgun before he ceased hostilities.

No single gunshot is a guarantee of stopping a threat, some are just more likely to than others. I can understand why some members want a side saddle and a butt cuff on their gun. I personally think a second on-board source of ammunition is past the point of diminishing returns when looking at value gained for additional weight but other’s mileage may vary.