Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

[DDTSGM]

I think barricading everyone in a room and waiting is not what I would do.

Besides armor there is nothing bullet proof in my rooms

As you mention, it depends on what the situation is inside the room in terms of cover. The type of construction is also a factor. You also have to consider what armament the bad guys are packing.

I'd think using a dresser full of clothes for cover against pistols in an older home with lathe plaster walls would be fairly 'safe' as opposed to a home constructed of sheetrock.

If you have a plan to defend a specific room, it might be appropriate to consider how the room is furnished and how things are arranged.

If I am in a gunfight I want THE ABILITY/OPTION to maneuver.

If I start shooting I can expect people to shoot back. I don't want to be drawing fire to my wife and kids.

If I'm waiting then the bad guys are dictating the direction of the fight.

I don't know how much time you've spent clearing houses and doing building searches, so your experiences may be different than mine. In my experience no matter how swift, silent and deadly you are trying to be, the bad guys know you are coming. A way to circumvent that would be to have Alexia turn on all your entertainment stuff to cover noise.

So, at one point we lived in a quad level house. All the bedrooms were on the upper level and could be approached only by going up seven steps and walking down a hallway. In considering defense, the first thing I realized was that the only way to search the house, aside from exiting my bedroom via a window and re-entering the house, was down the hall. I'm sure you've heard the term fatal funnel, correct? So thinking about it, I figured to get the kids into the master bedroom and have them sequester themselves in the porcelain tub in the master bath. I figured I would post up at the door to the bedroom and position myself in a prone position paralleling the hallway. This put the porcelain tub in the kid's bathroom in position to offer me cover. I'd then shoot anyone coming up the stairs from an unexpected position. My one concern was that it was merely three steps down to the level below and that a bad guy could shoot up through the floor.

My point is the home's floor plan plays an important role in determining your ability to search/more with a likelihood of success.

My idea was the bad guys wouldn't dictating the direction of the fight, I would be dictating the timing of the ambush.

[03RN]

As you mention, it depends on what the situation is inside the room in terms of cover. The type of construction is also a factor. You also have to consider what armament the bad guys are packing.

I'd think using a dresser full of clothes for cover against pistols in an older home with lathe plaster walls would be fairly 'safe' as opposed to a home constructed of sheetrock.

If you have a plan to defend a specific room, it might be appropriate to consider how the room is furnished and how things are arranged.



I don't know how much time you've spent clearing houses and doing building searches, so your experiences may be different than mine. In my experience no matter how swift, silent and deadly you are trying to be, the bad guys know you are coming. A way to circumvent that would be to have Alexia turn on all your entertainment stuff to cover noise.

So, at one point we lived in a quad level house. All the bedrooms were on the upper level and could be approached only by going up seven steps and walking down a hallway. In considering defense, the first thing I realized was that the only way to search the house, aside from exiting my bedroom via a window and re-entering the house, was down the hall. I'm sure you've heard the term fatal funnel, correct? So thinking about it, I figured to get the kids into the master bedroom and have them sequester themselves in the porcelain tub in the master bath. I figured I would post up at the door to the bedroom and position myself in a prone position paralleling the hallway. This put the porcelain tub in the kid's bathroom in position to offer me cover. I'd then shoot anyone coming up the stairs from an unexpected position. My one concern was that it was merely three steps down to the level below and that a bad guy could shoot up through the floor.

My point is the home's floor plan plays an important role in determining your ability to search/more with a likelihood of success.

My idea was the bad guys wouldn't dictating the direction of the fight, I would be dictating the timing of the ambush.

Pretty limited to MOUT and nothing in 17 years but fighting in Fallujah where we were constantly entering rooms with insurgents trying to shoot from behind furniture we were pretty successful. They knew we were coming but they got smoked.

The times the enemy tried to maneuver instead of wait is when they put up a better fight.

[DDTSGM]

Pretty limited to MOUT and nothing in 17 years but fighting in Fallujah where we were constantly entering rooms with insurgents trying to shoot from behind furniture we were pretty successful. They knew we were coming but they got smoked.

The times the enemy tried to maneuver instead of wait is when they put up a better fight.

Not going to argue with that.

Curious though, if the tables were turned and your guys were the ones shooting from behind furniture do you think the results would have been the same?

[RevolverRob]

So, I'll take an unpopular opinion.

Unless I start outside the structure I need to search. In which case I'm calling the people who get paid to search buildings to search it. - Then if there is a breach of my home, I will go towards the threat to neutralize it. It's my home turf and I know it. Move, seize initiative. I know the places that are dangerous, choke points, and cover or concealment better than my opponent does. And unlike my opponent, who likely came armed with a pistol, if that, I will bring plenty of buckshot fueled hate.

Waiting puts you at a disadvantage of being concealed, waiting to surprise, but being unable to know where/what the threat is.

Both tactics have merit, but we see most armed home owners who repel invaders do so by moving to the threat and engaging.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I have an idea. Get a friend or two. Get some airsoft pistols or even water guns. You start where you want as your night time resting place. Have them 'break in' and you go get them. See if it works.

[Hambo]

Then if there is a breach of my home, I will go towards the threat to neutralize it. It's my home turf and I know it. Move, seize initiative. I know the places that are dangerous, choke points, and cover or concealment better than my opponent does. And unlike my opponent, who likely came armed with a pistol, if that, I will bring plenty of buckshot fueled hate.

Waiting puts you at a disadvantage of being concealed, waiting to surprise, but being unable to know where/what the threat is.

Both tactics have merit, but we see most armed home owners who repel invaders do so by moving to the threat and engaging.

One man house clearing is a bastard. Yes, I know my house well and I did building clearance for real (slow and fast), so there's that. But looking at my living room it's a bastard to clear from any direction without at least 3-4 guys. Solo, I'm giving the bad guy an even break. Anyone defending from one of those threat areas is playing with a stacked deck. Dark/light, funnels, and cover are all in their favor.

Waiting where you control an area is not a disadvantage. Why be in a rush to get shot at? The guy who broke in is on the clock, let him rush into a bad deal.

Most people who repel home invaders don't have a plan until they hear glass break. They're scared, or pissed, and fueled on emotion with zero training. They get lucky or they don't. I'm not doing something just because untrained jamoches got away with it.

And before anybody says, "I have to save my kids," think long, hard, and honestly about your ability to take a shot in their direction.

[03RN]

Not going to argue with that.

Curious though, if the tables were turned and your guys were the ones shooting from behind furniture do you think the results would have been the same?

At 13minutes he describes worst case scenario as the enemy stacking up using proper cqb techniques to attack your stack.

My guys wouldn't be shooting from behind furniture because it's poor tactics.

[DDTSGM]

At 13minutes he describes worst case scenario as the enemy stacking up using proper cqb techniques to attack your stack.

My guys wouldn't be shooting from behind furniture because it's poor tactics.

(deleted video link as I hate it when folks quote pictures and stuff)

That guy is several years late with his critique, at least from the LE perspective.

[TCinVA]

On the topic of shotgun capacity and the real world...

The internet has lots of theories about shotgun's obsolescence as a useful tool due to concerns about encountering multiple armored threats. As it happens, someone who has been to several of my shotgun classes was forced to apply a good deal of what we'd taught when multiple threats wearing level IV armor attacked the place where he was staying.

Apparently shotguns loaded with 1600 FPS slugs will shatter foreign made level IV armor plates...and the wearer of said plate can be put on the ground by the experience long enough to allow a followup shot to the CNS that proves definitive in stopping the threat. And this can be accomplished quickly enough that it can be repeated on the next couple of similarly armored bad guys coming up that stairwell.

In class I joke that it's unlikely that helicopters full of armored ninjas are going to break into your house so a shotgun will probably handle what you need it to handle.

The bizarre thing about training people to protect themselves is that something you say as a joke might actually come true. While there was no helicopter involved, a bunch of actual armored ninjas showed up intent on killing someone who had developed true proficiency with a shotgun and he managed to keep himself alive by using the light switch and an 870.

...and so I'll say again that if anyone in the world ever gets the notion to try and kill me, I pray to God they're fucking stupid enough to do it while I'm inside a typical residential structure when I have a shotgun handy.

[Dov]

Any idea on the specifics of the slugs used? Foster, Brenneke, or??

I was at one social event hosted by a medically retired LEO, and he brought out an expired vest, don't remember what level it was rated at, for us to try various loads on.

I shot it with my 4" S&W 629 and Federal 300 grain Castcore (factory hardcast LBT ish bullet) the vest stopped it but there was significant deformation, drove vest into wood post vest was mounted on.

One person shot it with some type of hand loaded 12 gauge slug, vest stopped it barely but pretty sure it would have caused broken bones on living target at minimum based on how far into the wood that load drove the vest.

One person shot it with AR and that zipped right through of course.




NOTE FROM TC: I accidentally edited this post instead of quoting it. Bad moderator, no donut! I'm restoring the quote I still had up in another window.