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Thread: Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

  1. #51
    These discussions are always interesting.

    While I think there are very few tactical absolutes, it should go without saying that you should be able to explain the why of every tactic you are using, AND keep an open mind, willing to compare and contrast the tactics others espouse with the tactics you think are best.

    BTW - I'm getting tired of liking several of you guys posts, a lot of worthwhile stuff being thrown about.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  2. #52
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    All of that ultimate stopping power is true until the badguys are wearing NIJ level 2 soft armor or better. The North Hollywood Shootout with two guys in home made soft-armor suits were impervious to LAPD’s shotguns and pistols.
    Yes.

    The North Hollywood Shootout also involved two guys who went to rob a bank in the middle of the day and anticipated police response.

    The police were stuck shooting at those individuals from an extremely extended distance.

    Conditions are a bit different at home defense ranges.

    An armored bad guy at typical defensive ranges gets the exact same sort of failure drill that we teach with pistols or rifles: If he doesn't go down, transition to the head. The shotgun's destructive capacity means that it's the one weapon where a pelvic shot actually has a pretty good chance of altering the bad guy's ability to fight, putting that on the table as well.

    Body armor is out there in the criminal class...but home invasions aren't seeing much of it used. Where you do see it is usually drug ripoffs.

    CNS shots with good buckshot are pretty effective:

    3/15/2016

  3. #53
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    @TCinVA I’ll also give the nod to shotguns with traditional stocks to easier (or maybe more accurate) failure to stop drills due to less offset than with an AR. That’s part of the reason I tend to prefer a nice rib with a bead, though I have put time into that system that a lot of people haven’t and understand how to use rib height and alignment with the reciever as the rear sight. I agree with you that generally rifle style sights or a dot are probably better for folks who don’t put in that time.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    M1 with blacktips. Check
    I do believe you have that covered!

    That's what's fun about these kinds of threads. There are always exceptions to any generality but a Garand with AP ammo solves it.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    M1 with blacktips. Check
    Yes or FAL para and AP.

  6. #56
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    Great Info.

    There’s a lot of great information in this thread, well most threads in PF actually. I’ve ordered a couple of Vang Comp side saddle shot shell cards, in spite of being in the lighter, less cumbersome camp of shotgun load outs. The reasons are the following:
    1. The Velcro cards allow for use when needed and removal when not. The only thing left behind would be the sticky side of the Velcro, thus low weight and “get in the way” attachments like with the hard to find anyway, Aridus QDC, are not there. The real and increasing in popularity rioting/looting/arson can happen with some advanced warning. This new normal increases the need for more ammo potentially, and the side saddle allows the gun to be stored light and clean for most circumstances, and with additional ammo for any anticipated roving bands of arsonists.
    2. Most of the defensive shotgun instructors I’ve read or heard from recommend the side saddle over other methods of on gun storage. If I can ever get around to taking a course, I’ll want one with which to practice and learn on. Having recently recovered (mostly) from a 33 day hospital stay in a bedridden state due to Covid with the included loss of 20 pounds of muscle, I’m unable to hold the gun up with my dominant hand. Having watched video of various methods of loading from the side saddle versus the butt cuff, I think the saddle is the best way for me. Yes, I’ll have to cradle the gun to do it.
    3. I think reloading your chosen gun, regardless the type or model, in a hurried state, is an essential skill for any shooter. The side saddle will become a part of my regular range work and help keep my reloading skills sharp.

    Thanks for the advice…

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboytim View Post
    Having recently recovered (mostly) from a 33 day hospital stay in a bedridden state due to Covid with the included loss of 20 pounds of muscle, I’m unable to hold the gun up with my dominant hand.
    Glad you’re doing better!
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by WobblyPossum View Post
    Glad you’re doing better!
    Thank you.
    To not hijack the thread, I’ll just say thanks in advance for any and all well wishes.

    If not for some gallantry in action by my heroic nurses, I could have been intubated but was not, thanks to them and their above and beyond actions. I was lucky to have them by my side all hours of the day and night. I was a very sick boy. I’m way better now and always improving. I’m walking up to an hour with good blood oxygen numbers at the end. I walk nearly every day. I’m doing other exercises too, including breathing workouts. I also lift and manipulate my 1301 Tac… 😎👍 As a professional pilot that flies a daily route 5 to 6 days a week, I’m anxious to return to the skies when able. I’ll be 70 in January but F retirement, it’s not for me.

  9. #59
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    It doesn’t matter how much ammo you have if you repeatedly short stroke the gun. This video makes a strong argument for the semi if one can afford it.


  10. #60
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Short stroking is one of the potential downsides of a pump shotgun.

    ...but context might help us correctly understand that risk.

    Typical police training with shotguns is laughable. A lot of academy programs perform what is essentially fam fire with shotguns and then officers hit the department and perform a "qualification" that sometimes is as sad as just making the thing go bang a few times.

    The guns themselves see almost no maintenance while in service. While you will be able to find a department that has armorers on staff who are fastidious about maintaining guns for the troops, for every one of those you can find you will find dozens of largely disinterested "armorers" who don't perform any preventative maintenance.

    ...not that their administrations provide enough budget to perform preventative maintenance anyway.

    So that could be the result of a minimally trained person trying to use a weapon they really don't know how to use under stress.

    It could be that the magazine spring in that gun has been getting the shit kicked out of it in a cruiser for God only knows how long and the gun isn't properly feeding shells when the action is run. It could be that the shell stops need to be replaced.

    If we leave all the same conditions in place with a semi-automatic shotgun, an unfamiliar user trying to do work with a gun that hasn't been properly maintained might not have gotten any better results.
    3/15/2016

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