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Thread: Shotgun Capacity in Real World Use

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboytim View Post
    As a professional pilot that flies a daily route 5 to 6 days a week, I’m anxious to return to the skies when able. I’ll be 70 in January but F retirement, it’s not for me.
    Well, you get to go fly airplanes and get paid, why retire? [emoji106]



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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmc45414 View Post
    Well, you get to go fly airplanes and get paid, why retire? [emoji106]

    Exactly!


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  3. #63
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Because this subject causes such controversy in many places, I think it's useful to look at real life uses of the defensive shotgun to see what reality looks like.

    Here we have a use of Federal LE133, 8 pellet Flight Control buckshot:

    https://youtu.be/cVoWgIrCLVM


    Circumstances as described by an Austin PD officer who knows some of the details list the distance as 59 yards. Impacts to the upper chest and neck of the armed subject.

    Here is another confirmed use of Federal Flight Control, but at a much shorter distance:

    https://youtu.be/omTcmMa1hxc


    Here we see another shooting with what I believe is Federal Flight Control. I've seen my fair share of FFC rounds fired in class and if you look carefully you can see what I believe is the white FFC wad heading right at the upper chest of the threat:

    https://youtu.be/QwTDxr9St-0


    Then there's this video from Indianapolis that I posted earlier, another shooting with FFC with a first shot hit to the CNS:

    https://youtu.be/i7t_TV00lds


    Key commonalities that produce these results:

    - Tight concentrations of buckshot delivered around an anatomically useful point of aim
    - Useful sights on the shotgun (rifle style sights on all of them)
    - No hard cover between the threat and the officer using a shotgun

    Buckshot's fight-stopping capability comes from near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. Especially when those projectiles are concentrated in a small enough area to overwhelm the ability of tissue to stretch. If the pellets are more spread out we don't get that synergistic effect of simultaneous impacts at the same location, but even individual pellets cutting individual wound tracks in multiple spots where important structures live can be very effective as the 59 yard shot demonstrates.

    Here's an incident where it took more than one shot. I don't know what buckshot was being used but we can see it is being used at extended range. It's likely only a part of the pattern hit the threat with potentially only one of the four shots fired. Distance and the threat's use of cover/concealment were crucial factors:

    https://youtu.be/_fvvLUpZU1s


    Here's a situation where the shotgun was completely ineffective:

    https://youtu.be/6b8Fg6_mp0E


    ...but we have to note the conditions. Note that the gun is a bead-sighted 870 with no additional ammunition on the officer or on the gun. The officer fires four rounds (none of them look like FFC buckshot) into the windshield of a city bus, to no effect on the bad guy apart from driving him back away from the front of the bus. The empty gun is then an inefficient club and is discarded. Bus windshields are about twice as thick as those in a typical passenger vehicle so a spread even of plated buckshot would be unlikely to penetrate through and hit the intended point of aim beyond the glass with useful effect. Situations like this are why Deep Penetrator slugs were brought to the LE market.

    Many 5.56 rounds would have had the exact same problem in that same circumstance. The extra capacity in a 5.56, however, would allow the opportunity to put a series of shots in the same spot to actually make a hole that projectiles could go through without hinderance...IF the bad guy stays close enough to the intended path to allow that. Which doesn't seem to happen often.

    "Capacity" gets a lot of play in "what if" discussions, but when we look at real world uses of the defensive shotgun we don't often see the more limited number of shots come into play as a primary limiting factor. Even in instances where multiple shots are required, it's usually not to the point of emptying the shotgun before the situation is resolved except in those rare cases where we see difficult barriers or such extended distance that only a portion of the pattern is making it on target if at all.
    3/15/2016

  4. #64
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Key commonalities that produce these results:

    - Tight concentrations of buckshot delivered around an anatomically useful point of aim
    - Useful sights on the shotgun (rifle style sights on all of them)
    - No hard cover between the threat and the officer using a shotgun
    RE: point #2:

    Circumstances made me a plodding shotgunner, one who early on realized that he needed more than a simple, small round bead out on the end of the barrel. Well, that and living in what was at the time a shotgun-only deer hunting state and seeing success vs failure every season.

    There are an awful lot of people out there - uniformed or otherwise - who are not good enough shotgunners to use one with minimal sights, and I remain one of these poor schlubs. As the DEA-style low-profile XS "express"-style barrels have demonstrated to my own satisfaction, I don't need match sights but I sure as hell need both a front and a rear to steer that shot.
    Last edited by gato naranja; 01-14-2022 at 07:14 AM.
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  5. #65
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    In keeping with the theme, here's a defensive use of a shotgun that I would consider sub-optimal:



    In general when you shoot someone with a shotgun you're not looking for them to run off with no blood trail screaming "He shot my arm off!"

    I'd guess that he was using a sub-optimal munition with too-light pellets. One of the reason I don't like going below #1 is that there's a significant chance you're going to need to go through arms to get to the goodie box.

    Still, it was effective and it shows the utility of a ready-access long gun for business defense.

    Also note that California's assault weapons ban didn't seem to trouble the robbers any.
    3/15/2016

  6. #66
    Member GearFondler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    In keeping with the theme, here's a defensive use of a shotgun that I would consider sub-optimal:



    In general when you shoot someone with a shotgun you're not looking for them to run off with no blood trail screaming "He shot my arm off!"

    I'd guess that he was using a sub-optimal munition with too-light pellets. One of the reason I don't like going below #1 is that there's a significant chance you're going to need to go through arms to get to the goodie box.

    Still, it was effective and it shows the utility of a ready-access long gun for business defense.

    Also note that California's assault weapons ban didn't seem to trouble the robbers any.
    My ultra-scientific gut reaction based on the sound, the recoil, and the reaction was that it was bird shot.

  7. #67
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    In keeping with the theme, here's a defensive use of a shotgun that I would consider sub-optimal:



    In general when you shoot someone with a shotgun you're not looking for them to run off with no blood trail screaming "He shot my arm off!"


    I'd guess that he was using a sub-optimal munition with too-light pellets. One of the reason I don't like going below #1 is that there's a significant chance you're going to need to go through arms to get to the goodie box.

    Still, it was effective and it shows the utility of a ready-access long gun for business defense.

    Also note that California's assault weapons ban didn't seem to trouble the robbers any.
    Silver lining: instead of a grunt and a thump you get a marvelously funny soundtrack.

    I hope he gets lead poisoning.

  8. #68
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    My observations::



    Capacity was not relevant.



    Speed, surprise, ferocity of attack once again prevail.



    Psychological stop only, which is fine as robbers tend to not be very dedicated to pressing the assault. It's business, not personal, and they want to live to rob again. Better shot and/or better shot placement would be more likely to result in a bang-flop then a bang-flee. Buckshot is best shot, but no idea what papaw was using.



    Good example of intermediate barriers needing to be defeated. Bad guy's arms and long gun are blocking a lot of his good gibbly bits, and are now intermediate barriers. It's not always plywood and drywall. This is why cartridges that pass the ENTIRETY of the FBI protocols are superior to cartridges that pass some or none and should be used when available and appropriate for the firearm selected.



    Shotguns have an admirably record of ending problem people's problematic behavior. I have personally never taken a case where a defender who fired the shotgun *prior to entanglement* lost. The only losers failed to fire or got entangled and fired while fighting over the gun to no avail.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    My observations::



    Capacity was not relevant.



    Speed, surprise, ferocity of attack once again prevail.



    Psychological stop only, which is fine as robbers tend to not be very dedicated to pressing the assault. It's business, not personal, and they want to live to rob again. Better shot and/or better shot placement would be more likely to result in a bang-flop then a bang-flee. Buckshot is best shot, but no idea what papaw was using.



    Good example of intermediate barriers needing to be defeated. Bad guy's arms and long gun are blocking a lot of his good gibbly bits, and are now intermediate barriers. It's not always plywood and drywall. This is why cartridges that pass the ENTIRETY of the FBI protocols are superior to cartridges that pass some or none and should be used when available and appropriate for the firearm selected.



    Shotguns have an admirably record of ending problem people's problematic behavior. I have personally never taken a case where a defender who fired the shotgun *prior to entanglement* lost. The only losers failed to fire or got entangled and fired while fighting over the gun to no avail.
    This is part of why I've migrated from a suppressed carbine to a 12 gauge in and around my house. I just got to thinking one day about the actual emotions I would feel if someone were to assault the sanctity within my home. The emotions that I encountered led to my decision to transition to a 14" Benelli. My home is not "large". I do not have a bowling alley for a hallway. I need to prevent someone from doing something dangerous to/closing with, me and mine as IMMEDIATELY as possible. The shotgun is the king of trauma in this environment. You simply don't "push through" 2-3 quick taps from 00B/Slug at the bottom of a staircase. That's going to change your physical structure, not just liquify the pump house.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Good example of intermediate barriers needing to be defeated. Bad guy's arms and long gun are blocking a lot of his good gibbly bits, and are now intermediate barriers. It's not always plywood and drywall. This is why cartridges that pass the ENTIRETY of the FBI protocols are superior to cartridges that pass some or none and should be used when available and appropriate for the firearm selected.
    Bingo. I don’t know how many times I’ve posted something along those lines in response to someone questioning why a non-LE private citizen should care about how their ammunition tests in the FBI protocol. I think the bad guy’s arms are the most likely intermediate barriers a good guy is going to have to defeat, whether LE or not. People have a lot of bones in them.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

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