Shotgun setup & technique

[StraitR]

Innuendo intentional

So as not to muck up the 1301 thread further…

What’s the accepted way to load a shotgun from a side-saddle?

What about from a butt cuff?

what are the relative costs/be edits of each as they relate to each other?

Does “maintain a firing grip” rear it’s head here? Does it matter?

For side-saddle loading, I've settled on the "Metro Load" shared by DB, discussed here a few years ago in another thread. I like it because it's a singular and consistent method of grabbing the shells from the side saddle, regardless of whether you are loading the port or the tube. One motion = simplicity. A side benefit is that all shells are placed brass up (one direction = simplicity), resulting in less chances of losing a shell from aging velcro cards. I prefer the Esstac 4 shot cards for weight and handling, and while they are good, they are not as robust as the Vang's. If Vang offered 4 shot cards, I'd use them.

Chris Baker ended up doing a video on shotgun loading, to include the Metro Load, linked below. Unfortunately, it won't embed at the point in which Chris starts talking about the method. I've tried several times. Skip forward to 3:35.

While I have put velcro on my stock for potential added shot card storage, I've never used it or attempted to load from there. I don't like the handling with the added weight on the stock, nor the inability to transition shoulders. This is my HD long gun of choice, so being able to fire from each side is important because of various doors and hallways in my home.

[TCinVA]

I'm glad you mentioned that...

I was curious if anyone had put the two techniques on the clock, both in terms of loading through the port and loading through the lifter?

Ignoring (maybe a lot) around what is in this video and focusing on the manipulation techniques, is this the "correct" method of loading from a butt cuff?

It's not how I would do it.

He's got his shells rim-up because he's using a pretty awful elastic butt cuff that sucks. Note that Tom's guns either have a quality leather or heavy duty nylon/elastic butt cuff. Not those el-cheapo setups.

When you have a quality setup for a butt cuff it will reliably hold shells either way, but I prefer having them rim down in a butt cuff. It makes it much easier to extract them from the butt cuff with whichever hand you want to use.

Lots of people try to manipulate shotgun shells by plucking them out of various carriage devices with the tips of their fingers going at the rim of the cartridge. And as soon as they end up under some level of stress (like from a timer and an audience...or a gunfight) they drop shells like Johnny Appleseed planting trees.

Instead, you want to get as much meat around the shell as possible as soon as possible. If I were using a butt cuff with my strong hand, I'd want them rim down so I could just bring my strong hand backwards, put my thumb on top of the shell's crimp, then drive it down into the rest of my hand, making a fist as I pluck it away from the cuff. Reaching over the top of the stock while the gun is mounted straight sucks. It's much easier to do it with the shells oriented rim down using your support hand as you can come underneath your strong arm much more easily and feed the magazine or chamber that way.

In general I find reaching over the stock just doesn't work as well with either hand.

You'll note in the article posted in the other thread Tom has his butt cuff setups with the shells oriented rim down. That's so he can keep a firing grip on the shotgun and feed the magazine tube to keep it from running dry while maintaining the ability to shoot a fool should they insist on pressing the problem while he's mid-load.

In general if you can get your thumb or your middle finger on the crimp of the shell and use that to drive the shell into your whole hand, you will end up with a much more reliable result than all this finger-tippy, picking blueberries with Peter Fonda kind of stuff that people seem naturally predisposed to doing.

His objection to a side saddle is rather ill-informed, as I don't teach people who struggle to keep a shotgun mounted to keep the shotgun mounted to perform loads. IF someone is standing flat footed and has the upper body strength to keep the shotgun in the shoulder to perform a side saddle reload from a good side saddle, it's incredibly fast. Even a big strong person is going to find it is beneficial to break the gun out of the shoulder and pull the stock under the armpit to load when they are on the move.

I find it is much, much easier to get either an emergency load (gun empty, chamber open) or a voluntary reload (topping off magazine) accomplished on the move if I'm using a side saddle.

The primary technique is to break the gun out of the mount maintaining a firing grip with the hand while using the whole of the arm and upper body to help support the gun so you can accomplish the manipulation. The goal of the reload is to have a method of reliably reloading the gun, not whatever it says on the timer. I use the timer to quantify what an efficient emergency load looks like to bust myths about shotguns. But the technique taught is robust enough to work no matter what is going on.

...even if you only have one hand to operate the gun. That's another reason why I prefer the side saddle. I can feed and run the gun retaining mobility even if I've only got one arm working if I'm using a good side saddle.

Most people are not going to be doing a lot of moving in the typical defensive shotgun use in the home and they probably won't be down to one arm like an FBI agent left alone to deal with two homicidal sociopaths, but the core manipulations that work under those dire circumstances aren't going to serve the home defender poorly in a less exotic shooting.

[TCinVA]

Why can't you run both and have a shot card on the receiver and stock?

You absolutely can. In fact, if you want to dedicate the butt cuff to topping off the magazine after use and the side saddle to just emergency loads you can do that too. Or dedicate one to buckshot and another to slugs, etc. Nothing wrong with any of that if that's what you want to do.

I don't bother with anything more than a side saddle for the following reasons:

- I want to keep my manipulations simple. Having one spot I go to for more shells helps keep that process tidy.
- I don't think I'm going to need that many shells.
- I find the butt cuff interferes with my ability to use the gun from an off shoulder.
- I don't want the extra weight on the gun given that I'm unlikely to need the extra capacity.

If your situation is different, do what works for you. Everybody's use isn't identical to mine. So set your gun up for how it works for you.

I would suggest upgrading to the Vang Comp velcro cards as they are far more durable than what you've got on there.

[TCinVA]

Does “maintain a firing grip” rear it’s head here? Does it matter?

If one is topping off the gun because there's been some shooting, maintaining the ability to continue shooting is pretty important. One would not be putting more shells in the gun if they thought the fight was good and done.

It just so happens that the most efficient methods for getting more shells in the shotgun from realistic defensive equipment are going to involve keeping the strong hand on the gun. If you're quad loading then that won't be the case, but I don't know of anyone who is sleeping in a rig set up for quad loading their shotgun. I've never tried it but I imagine it interferes with comfort and intimacy to go to bed with such a setup strapped around one's belly.

All things equal I'd prefer to keep a firing grip on the shotgun because most realistic tasks like practical loading and muzzle management (which is absolutely crucial and under-appreciated when using the gun in real world defense) are easier with the strong hand controlling the gun.

[TCinVA]

Because I've never used one, I'll leave it to those who have to comment on their value.

I'm not a fan. Something I've said on the topic elsewhere:

I frequently get questions about the Match Saver product. As I understand the history of the device, it was conceived in the world of three gun where being competitive required carefully planning your shotgun loading lest you lose precious seconds. If you missed or a target didn't go down when it was supposed to, you had ready access to another shell for a quick load that could literally "save" your match.

Since a speedy reload was the raison d'etre for the Match Saver, folks naturally assume it's a good option for a quick reload on a defensive scattergun.

Personally, I'm not a fan. The typical location of the Match Saver actually interferes with non-Match Saver manipulations on semi-automatic shotguns. The typical mounting location is just forward of the ejection port. This places, in effect, a ramp right in front of the bolt handle on most semi-automatic shotguns. If you attempt to charge the weapon at speed the way one would operate the bolt on other weapons with a protruding bolt handle (think M1 Garand, AK, etc) you can actually end up hitting the "ramp" of the Match Saver and overshooting the bolt handle entirely. I've seen this happen repeatedly in class with even very skilled shooters. Further, the gap between the bolt handle on your typical semi-auto and the Match Saver is small, leaving little room for error or reduced dexterity due to cold, gloves, etc.

It can also interfere with the process of getting another shell into the ejection port when loading from something besides the Match Saver itself. Granted if someone has finely honed reloads it is not going to be much of a danger...but I encounter very few people who have taken the time to finely hone that manipulation. This seems to be especially true for lefties who are already working at a slight handicap to the rest of us.

It is also a dedicated manipulation that, at best, works one time. For a dedicated three gunner that isn't a problem because they are spending considerable amounts of time working on their manipulations. Anyone who is investing the time and effort necessary to reliably quad-load their shotgun is not going to find the match saver difficult. It has been my experience, however, that most people using the shotgun for defense...even those who are pretty serious about it...are not practicing loading manipulations with anything approaching the frequency it requires to reliably master them. Adding a dedicated manipulation with no commonality to those used for the side saddle that's on their gun doesn't strike me as conducive to ensuring they can get through what's on the gun should it become necessary in an extraordinary situation where what's in the gun hasn't solved the problem.

They can be fast. And it is probably the fastest single load of a shell into the chamber of an empty gun that is possible...but, that being said, going from a side saddle is not really much slower and the side saddle is a more useful and realistic way to carry extra shells on the gun, IMO. I don't think that the slightly faster reload really justifies the drawbacks I've seen from Match Savers in use.

I don't recommend them. I certainly don't forbid them, either...but when they do show up in class and I see people struggling with them I make it a point to highlight the difficulty it is causing. I try to avoid being dogmatic about gear because generally speaking when folks are in class running their equipment they get the opportunity to see how well equipment decisions work out. Maybe my material is strange, but generally speaking when a Match Saver shows up the owner doesn't find themselves fond of it by the end of class.

That is the fastest way I can get shells from the buttstock, side saddle, vest, pouch, etc. and into the magazine. If a threat suddenly emerges midstream, I can push the gun forward with my left hand on the forend while rotating it, acquire a shooting grip with the right hand and butt in the shoulder. If loading with the support hand, it may be as fast from a side saddle, maybe as fast from a vest or pouch, but for me, no. Responding to an emerging threat is no faster, you still need to acquire a grip with the support hand.

The fastest way to get more shells into the magazine is with quad loading...but it requires dedicated equipment that isn't practical.

When one is loading the magazine top priority is reliably getting the shells into the magazine without dropping them. Methods to accomplish this will never be the fastest...but that load is not one where we are primarily concerned about speed. Especially given what may be going on at that moment.

If one is loading an empty chamber speed is certainly a factor...and with good technique and the right setup that can be accomplished most quickly and efficiently with the support hand going to the side saddle while the strong hand retains control of the gun.

You do not, in fact, need to get the support hand on the shotgun to fire a pretty quick, accurate shot. If I'm loading the magazine with the gun mounted (which I'm likely to be doing if I am standing still) I can very easily fire a shot should the need occur with my strong hand holding the gun. Takes nothing to snap the gun up to my eye line and fire an aimed shot. It's around 1/2 a second to accomplish that.

[TCinVA]

but also seems like once you add an optic that’s less optimal (like racking an ak bolt over the top becomes less ideal post-optic-add,

Correct.

The ideal technique for an over-the-top load is to rotate the shotgun inward toward the shell you are bringing to the chamber. The optic or a rail up there kind of gets in the way. It can still be done, but it's a little more difficult. I find it's most difficult for someone who has spent a lot of time going over the top on something like an 870 and now has an optic up there to contend with.

I kinda think I just answered my own question on that front. If loading into an open port from the side, going under seems preferable. Also seems an easy technique to teach/practice on the clays course with no detriment to either these game or the tactical.

It's my preferred method. It's fast and people take to it pretty quickly once they've had a couple of nuances explained.

I’m liking the idea of only having shells in one location, and only having brass in one orientation, as of this writing.

For most people, the simpler the manipulations the better. People don't train with shotguns. The manipulations done properly will be recalled effectively enough by the casual user that they can do it when they need to, and are sufficiently efficient that they will be fast and reliable under just about any circumstances when someone dedicates a little sustainment practice to them.

[167]

So I’m still curious about technique.

What’s the “proper” method of loading from a side saddle? Butt cuff?

This is a similar technique to what TCinVA described. I am using my index finger to push the shell down into the hand instead of the thumb. This is my first day running port loads from the butt stock, so I am not the most consistent yet. You can actually see a good argument for doing it TC’s way in the second video. Should give an idea of how long it takes though. It is about 1/4-1/2 second slower than my typical port load from a side saddle.

[1slow]

I have been in a class with TCinVA and he is much better than I am with a gauge.

Mostly I load with left hand coming off forend whether I am loading magazine or port.

To load port.
I also like going under the gun to load the port. A lot of my past work was with 870 pump guns and for me it was faster and more sure to load from under the gun and slide the pump forward in one smooth motion.

Pull shell from whatever carrier get it oriented pointing forward. I have it across 4 fingers with the index and pinky pining it between and the 2 middle fingers supporting the shell from the bottom. Finger curl shell up into port and close action.

[xtrtsqrt11]

I'm new to the forum, have been around though. CA POST Academy in '93, OR DPSST in '98 for Corrections, Basic SWAT at work in '99, couple of 10 8 courses-one of which was with Rob Haught in So Cal in 2007. I remember meeting DB and Matt Haught there... In my early days on the team I was on, we were primarily a shotgun (for primary) entry weapon, so we did a lot of feeding the beast type of drills. 8.5 years until a knee injury had me step down from the team. Still miss it...

I choose a pistol grip stock on my 870. I find it easier to keep the muzzle up at my shoulder than a traditional rifle stock. I went from a plus 2 mag extension to a plus one to cut down on muzzle weight. 2 days with Rob Haught taught me that...

Here is my 870 that I've had for 20 odd years. My side saddle is just the standard tacstar of the day. I keep my shells rim up since I go with the idea of keeping the brass above the plastic so that I can jam the shells further down for extra retention the plastic isn't stretched out too much. Maybe I'll update to cards one of these days... ...Tacstar is still in good shape.
I like the ghost rings, they have me able to engage out to 100 yards in my limited practice. No slugs at work unfortunately. I keep my shotgun loaded with #4 buck as the first round with the next four being 00 buck. Side saddle is all 00, and my speed feed stock (yes it's heavy, but it is the most comfortable I've found and I like the extra ammo that is truly out of the way) with slugs in it. I cut the LOP down so the ammo is limited to one on each side rather than the original two on each side. I have an Aimpoint on my M4-ish rifle but I haven't decided that I need yet another thing bolted to my shotgun for my needs. Original Surefire fore end even though it's heavy, it doesn't even have a cut off switch it's so old. It's still like new though, one training course and then my own drills on the range is all. I take out the bulb and batteries when it's day time range.

My reload revolves around what I have understood (it called here) as the violin method of turning the shotgun 90 degrees ejection port up and resting the side of the stock backed up on my shoulder a bit so as to shorten up the overall extension from my body. This is so that if I need to start a reload of a newly emptied shotgun, I can grab the shell rim (support hand) and watch it all the way into the port and then a quick turn, remount to the shoulder and action close. I find this less fumble likely compared to palming the shell and going underneath the shotgun for me. Even though subsequent shells do have to make a longer trip rim up to the loading port, I feel that that first round getting up is most important and the rest can get there as I can. I don't do a combo rim up and down cause I want to keep all of them the same.

I look at those new Beretta 1301s with interest though...

[Lon]

I'm new to the forum, have been around though. CA POST Academy in '93, OR DPSST in '98 for Corrections, Basic SWAT at work in '99, couple of 10 8 courses-one of which was with Rob Haught in So Cal in 2007. I remember meeting DB and Matt Haught there... In my early days on the team I was on, we were primarily a shotgun (for primary) entry weapon, so we did a lot of feeding the beast type of drills. 8.5 years until a knee injury had me step down from the team. Still miss it...

I choose a pistol grip stock on my 870. I find it easier to keep the muzzle up at my shoulder than a traditional rifle stock. I went from a plus 2 mag extension to a plus one to cut down on muzzle weight. 2 days with Rob Haught taught me that...

Here is my 870 that I've had for 20 odd years. My side saddle is just the standard tacstar of the day. I keep my shells rim up since I go with the idea of keeping the brass above the plastic so that I can jam the shells further down for extra retention the plastic isn't stretched out too much. Maybe I'll update to cards one of these days... ...Tacstar is still in good shape.
I like the ghost rings, they have me able to engage out to 100 yards in my limited practice. No slugs at work unfortunately. I keep my shotgun loaded with #4 buck as the first round with the next four being 00 buck. Side saddle is all 00, and my speed feed stock (yes it's heavy, but it is the most comfortable I've found and I like the extra ammo that is truly out of the way) with slugs in it. I cut the LOP down so the ammo is limited to one on each side rather than the original two on each side. I have an Aimpoint on my M4-ish rifle but I haven't decided that I need yet another thing bolted to my shotgun for my needs. Original Surefire fore end even though it's heavy, it doesn't even have a cut off switch it's so old. It's still like new though, one training course and then my own drills on the range is all. I take out the bulb and batteries when it's day time range.

My reload revolves around what I have understood (it called here) as the violin method of turning the shotgun 90 degrees ejection port up and resting the side of the stock backed up on my shoulder a bit so as to shorten up the overall extension from my body. This is so that if I need to start a reload of a newly emptied shotgun, I can grab the shell rim (support hand) and watch it all the way into the port and then a quick turn, remount to the shoulder and action close. I find this less fumble likely compared to palming the shell and going underneath the shotgun for me. Even though subsequent shells do have to make a longer trip rim up to the loading port, I feel that that first round getting up is most important and the rest can get there as I can. I don't do a combo rim up and down cause I want to keep all of them the same.

I look at those new Beretta 1301s with interest though...

Nice setup. I ran a Speedfeed stock cut down when I worked dope back in the day. Worked good.

What’s your thought process behind the first round loaded up with #4?