S&W M&P 10 MM

[MattyD380]

Except there is a segment for whom the N-frame Glocks do not work, and prefer the M&P ergos. The M&P 45 has a rep for being a solid accurate gun that handles 45 better than most. If that translates over to 10mm, I could see a lot of folk who like the 10 being interested.

And that's before you get to aftermarket things like APEX triggers, with the FSS and the like, that you cannot effectively replicate on the Glock.

Fair. I have heard good things about the M&P 45s. Never actually shot one, though.

[Brianjkeene]

Would be great if they take the opportunity to introduce a Shield Plus style trigger to the double stack M&P lines with this release.

[Clusterfrack]

...other utilitarian options already exist (e.g., G29 & G20)

I don't find the Glock 10mm very utilitarian because--at least in my experience--they aren't reliable with full-power 10mm loads unless you do significant aftermarket modifications. I'm not an M&P fan, but am very glad to see this gun released because it keeps the caliber alive and brings more competition to the field. Hopefully Glock is paying attention?

[FPS]

For a 10mm bear gun, there is no reason to fuss with the problems of hardcast ammo (the wide meplat issue GJM has talked about repeatedly) now that we have Lehigh Xtreme Pentrator bullets. Xtreme Penetrators really are game changers in a variety of pistol calibers. They do everything hardcast can do without the feeding issues.

When I was fussing with 10mm pre-Lehigh, I had two main issue with my Glock 29SF - reliable feeding of the hardcast ammo (my KKM barrel with smaller throat was part of the problem but I was trying to avoid Glock "smilies" on the brass with the stock barrel) and practice ammo not properly stabilizing at higher speeds. I remember having accuracy problems and some keyholing using 180 grain RNFP copper plated - but perhaps things have changed now and maybe it was also a function of my inexperience at the time.

Everyone gets obsessed with caliber and power with bear guns but to me, accuracy doesn't get taken into account nearly enough. Especially with handguns, you must get accurate hits. I think this was solidified by Phil Shoemaker's success with 9mm Buffalo Bore hardcast against a grizzly:

"I have killed enough bears to know how important shot placement can be, even with large-bore rifles. I was well aware of the limitations of my 9mm pistol, even with Buffalo Bore ammo. I was aiming for a vital area with each shot; because it all took place between 6 and 8 feet, they were not far off. But hitting the head and brain of a highly animated and agitated animal is a difficult shot."

https://concealednation.org/2017/05/...r-many-people/

My own bear gun journy started with the S&W 629 44 mag with 300 grain Buffalo Bore. Then I tried getting accurate hits at speed and moved down to 10mm. Now most of the time I just carry 9mm Xtreme Penetrators in my P30SK. I feel better more confident of getting successful hits with 15 rounds of those (plus a fast mag change) than my other options.

I think 10mm is a cool round but for most people, I am just not sure it is necessary or practical unless you really practice and know you can consistently get good hits with full powered loads.

[Spartan1980]

I don't find the Glock 10mm very utilitarian because--at least in my experience--they aren't reliable with full-power 10mm loads unless you do significant aftermarket modifications. I'm not an M&P fan, but am very glad to see this gun released because it keeps the caliber alive and brings more competition to the field. Hopefully Glock is paying attention?

I'll just wait over here on Springfield Armory to build the Bren Ten.

[Clusterfrack]

Xtreme Penetrators really are game changers in a variety of pistol calibers. They do everything hardcast can do without the feeding issues.

That is not consistent with my G20 tests of full power Lehigh 10mm loads. I could reproduce the same FTF malfunctions with XP as I had with wide meplat hardcast.

The same solution fixed the issue with both bullet types: heavy mag springs from 460 Rowland.

[03RN]

For a 10mm bear gun, there is no reason to fuss with the problems of hardcast ammo (the wide meplat issue GJM has talked about repeatedly) now that we have Lehigh Xtreme Pentrator bullets. Xtreme Penetrators really are game changers in a variety of pistol calibers. They do everything hardcast can do without the feeding issues.

When I was fussing with 10mm pre-Lehigh, I had two main issue with my Glock 29SF - reliable feeding of the hardcast ammo (my KKM barrel with smaller throat was part of the problem but I was trying to avoid Glock "smilies" on the brass with the stock barrel) and practice ammo not properly stabilizing at higher speeds. I remember having accuracy problems and some keyholing using 180 grain RNFP copper plated - but perhaps things have changed now and maybe it was also a function of my inexperience at the time.

Everyone gets obsessed with caliber and power with bear guns but to me, accuracy doesn't get taken into account nearly enough. Especially with handguns, you must get accurate hits. I think this was solidified by Phil Shoemaker's success with 9mm Buffalo Bore hardcast against a grizzly:

"I have killed enough bears to know how important shot placement can be, even with large-bore rifles. I was well aware of the limitations of my 9mm pistol, even with Buffalo Bore ammo. I was aiming for a vital area with each shot; because it all took place between 6 and 8 feet, they were not far off. But hitting the head and brain of a highly animated and agitated animal is a difficult shot."

https://concealednation.org/2017/05/...r-many-people/

My own bear gun journy started with the S&W 629 44 mag with 300 grain Buffalo Bore. Then I tried getting accurate hits at speed and moved down to 10mm. Now most of the time I just carry 9mm Xtreme Penetrators in my P30SK. I feel better more confident of getting successful hits with 15 rounds of those (plus a fast mag change) than my other options.

I think 10mm is a cool round but for most people, I am just not sure it is necessary or practical unless you really practice and know you can consistently get good hits with full powered loads.

I always thought this was an interesting part.

"Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs."

He brought the 9 because he didn't think he would need it. It's not what he carries now either.

[FPS]

That is not consistent with my G20 tests of full power Lehigh 10mm loads. I could reproduce the same FTF malfunctions with XP as I had with wide meplat hardcast.

The same solution fixed the issue with both bullet types: heavy mag springs from 460 Rowland.

Interesting, I think you are the first I have heard having issues with them but I haven't tracked it all that closely in the last few years.

He brought the 9 because he didn't think he would need it. It's not what he carries now either.

If I felt confident I could get good hits with my 629 and not have to reload, I would probably do that too but it would take a lot of time and a lot of expensive ammo to get to that place. 10mm I could get there faster.

[GJM]

Believe I reported in another thread, that a few months ago I tried Underwood Lehigh penetrators in a G4 20, and had a stoppage.

[Clusterfrack]

Believe I reported in another thread, that a few months ago I tried Underwood Lehigh penetrators in a G4 20, and had a stoppage.

I haven't seen many reports of high-round count tests of XP 10mm. Mine were only ~50 rounds. I forget how many @GJM shot. I am fairly confident that the main cause of the FTFs is increased slide velocity, and failure of the OEM magazine spring to deliver rounds in time. A flat wide meplat makes this more likely. However, even with very rounded bullets the OEM G20 is still operating on the edge of failure with full-power loads. That's not what I want in a field gun that gets dirty and wet, and is required for life-safety events. After adding aftermarket springs and mag shims, mine has been flawless and I now trust it. If I bought a new G20, I'd have to do the mods and testing all over again to feel confident.