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Thread: Modifying factory safety features to other factory configurations

  1. #11
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmc45414 View Post
    I agree, but...

    I know this is a hotly debated topic, but in the case of the M&P how would it even be known? Not even sure the sear block is a different part?
    Can you determine the factory configuration from the serial number? Or you might get asked about it in discovery.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    The Hi Power was not involved in the shooting; it was used as a range gun and was merely in the possession of the person who shot a violent attacker. The removed magazine disconnect was argued to constitute evidence that the shooter was generally reckless/negligent with firearms.
    .
    Well there goes the ' okay for a range gun argument's'.
    If we are doing hypotheticals,if you own a .44 magnum, and have a classic movies DVD collection, a lawyer will argue you were a Travis Bickle wannabe who was looking to kill someone, despite the actual incident involving an ATM robbery by a crackhead fought off with a pocket .380.
    The mere fact that you thought you needed a gun at all could be used by a zealous prosecutor in some areas. Meanwhile in others you could open fire on a group people robbing a store from across a field with a full auto machinegun and never see the inside of a courtroom.
    Using some common sense in your modifications and what you decide to carry is good advice, but trying to preemptively out lawyer a theoretical lawyer over pedantic minutiae should be way down the list of concerns.

  3. #13
    Member wvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandoWookie View Post
    So if I bought an M&P with safety, bought factory fire control parts for converting it to non safety, bought the factory frame plugs, all of which are sold by the manufacturer in their own web store, to convert to the gun to a condition that is offered in parallel with the version I purchased, and is functionally identical to a gun I could purchase and carry with no issue, that would be somehow a possible legal liability?

    What about with the current push of 'modularity' with guns like the SIG P320? Where they are marketing the ability to swap out nearly everything at the user level as a feature?
    "So you created a firearm that was less safe than it was the day you purchased it?" could well be the question that your attorney has to resolve for you, hopefully successfully.
    I don't know about you, but my representing council bills by the hour, I'm not eager to create more billable hours if I can help it.
    That's why I don't deactivate anything. If I want a G Model 92, I buy it. I don't retrofit the safety parts. Even if it means waiting.
    The only exception is I did have my K frame converted to DAO, and the hammer spur removed to quell "he had it cocked and it went off in an act of negligence".
    It all harkens back to "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride".
    Or, how much do you want to spend at your trial or deposition ?
    "And for a regular dude I’m maybe okay...but what I learned is if there’s a door, I’m going out it not in it"-Duke
    "Just because a girl sleeps with her brother doesn't mean she's easy..."-Blues

  4. #14
    Site Supporter FrankB's Avatar
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    My wife represents the NRA through Lloyd’s of London. She just told me that they do look for modifications done to firearms, but she’s never handled a case in which the firearm was altered. A lot of these injuries/deaths occur in California, and at ranges. She won’t give me permission to give names and cases.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by wvincent View Post
    "So you created a firearm that was less safe than it was the day you purchased it?" could well be the question that your attorney has to resolve for you, hopefully successfully.
    I don't know about you, but my representing council bills by the hour, I'm not eager to create more billable hours if I can help it.
    That's why I don't deactivate anything. If I want a G Model 92, I buy it. I don't retrofit the safety parts. Even if it means waiting.
    The only exception is I did have my K frame converted to DAO, and the hammer spur removed to quell "he had it cocked and it went off in an act of negligence".
    It all harkens back to "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride".
    Or, how much do you want to spend at your trial or deposition ?
    Holy crap. I hope they dont argue that putting this much documented forethought into how to beat the rap doesn't count as pre meditation in any incident you get into.

  6. #16
    Member wvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandoWookie View Post
    Holy crap. I hope they dont argue that putting this much documented forethought into how to beat the rap doesn't count as pre meditation in any incident you get into.
    What? That I don't believe in deactivating factory safety features or that I ended up with a heavier trigger weight?

    ETA For Clarity: It all goes to why do I carry a concealed firearm. To protect the life of my family and self. Whether it be due to past employment or just the becoming the victim of a random criminal. Gun is just a tool. It needs to be accurate, and factory configurations are designed by engineers, who are way smarter than me. I really can't justify bypassing or removing a safety feature, nor do I expect my attorney, who know less about guns than I do, to do it. This is the shit that get you into "expert witness" scope of legal fees.

    When someone like Mas gives it the stinkeye, I call that clue.

    But hey, you do you, and good luck!!

    Try looking at it like this: Think of your concealed carry gun as an LE officer's duty weapon. Now, how many dept's authorize the removal of safety features by individual officers?
    Last edited by wvincent; 11-01-2021 at 12:17 PM.
    "And for a regular dude I’m maybe okay...but what I learned is if there’s a door, I’m going out it not in it"-Duke
    "Just because a girl sleeps with her brother doesn't mean she's easy..."-Blues

  7. #17
    Member wvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie B View Post
    Can you determine the factory configuration from the serial number? Or you might get asked about it in discovery.
    My cousin used to work for S&W in Houlton, ME, and he once explained to me that the serial # is tied to the configuration as it leaves the Factory.
    "And for a regular dude I’m maybe okay...but what I learned is if there’s a door, I’m going out it not in it"-Duke
    "Just because a girl sleeps with her brother doesn't mean she's easy..."-Blues

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    I was trying to decide if I should buy a retro pistol because SAS/HRT. However, all the "how many angels can dance on a Series 80 safety" discussion has convinced me not to let one, or anyone who owns one, near me or my property.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  9. #19
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandoWookie View Post
    Using some common sense in your modifications and what you decide to carry is good advice, but trying to preemptively out lawyer a theoretical lawyer over pedantic minutiae should be way down the list of concerns.
    From the two cases I mentioned, IMO, the most important lesson to be learned is, don't shoot someone and try to beat the ride by telling the (other) cops, "I didn't mean to."

    Underpinning that is the imperative that if you shoot someone, you better actually have meant to do so. Conduct yourself accordingly.
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    Not another dime.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wvincent View Post
    My cousin used to work for S&W in Houlton, ME, and he once explained to me that the serial # is tied to the configuration as it leaves the Factory.
    Why if S&W is making a pistol with certain safety features, are they making a version that has less safety features? If one version of their product has thumb safety, mag safety, loaded chamber indicator, isn't anyone who purchases a version that lacks these features liable for buying an 'unsafe' weapon should they ever use it? They had the option, but they went out of their way to purchase something that didnt have these things.

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