Kyle Rittenhouse Trial.

[Duelist]

What principles are at play here?

Is it the principle that one can use lethal force to defend one's own property? Not really. While he may have been there for that reason at first, that kind of went away when he 'got out of the boat'.

Is it the principle that a 'reasonable man' can use lethal force to defend themselves from the imminent threat of grievous bodily harm? Indeed it is, even if he was there under questionable circumstances.

But doesn't that principle also apply to Grosscruz, had the shoot gone the other way? One could say that he and others were there for nefarious and questionable purposes, but then again, one could say that about Kyle too.

Not really - Rittenhouse was cleaning graffiti, providing first aid, and putting out arson fires. The others you refer to were setting arson fires, painting graffiti, and assaulting people.

Grosskreutz was part of the pursuit of Rittenhouse, and approached him, gun in hand, and then pointed it at him. Rittenhouse was attempting to leave. Had Grosskreutz shot Rittenhouse at the same moment he was shot by Rittenhouse, or burned him down from behind just before Rittenhouse took down the skateboard guy, his action would not have been any more justified than the physical assaults or just pointing a gun at Rittenhouse was. KR only shot at people who were already attacking him. Grosskreutz was with those people, and then pointed a gun at him.

[ccmdfd]

A desire and willingness to help is admirable. But there also needs to be an honest assessment of one's ability to help.

We see this all the time in search & rescue. Lost hiker? Lost family member? There will be volunteers, and their willingness to help is appreciated. But unless they're already on an organized team, most will be some combination of unfit, untrained, unskilled, or unequipped to participate safely and make a positive contribution to the effort. If they go out on a search they become liabilities. If they want to stay at the command post and help keep the searchers fed? Great! Happy to have them.

Sometimes the best way to be useful is not to be on the front line.

Excellent points. Same for @blues above yours.

Short personal story.

In 2016 the good people of Charlotte decided to riot after Keith Scott decided to "play a stupid game with guns and with cops and win stupid prizes" and he lost big time.

The people in charge that night made two (probably more) bad decisions:

1. Let them riot/burn/pillage (has that actually ever worked for anyone anytime??)
2. They sent my younger brother, then a Lt. with CMPD and many more straight into the riots wearing nothing but their standard day to day uniforms. They asked for riot gear but were denied. Guess it was for the "optics".

Not surprisingly things went bad for that group. My brother called to tell me he was off to receive medical care after being injured. Thankfully did not loose life or limb.

My blood turned to steam instantly when he told me that. I've never really wanted to hurt people, but i sure as heck did right then and there.

I told him I could come up with a multitude of weapons and help out. Not so much as to protect Charlotte (they are a liberal bastion in the state) but you simply don't Fu@K with my family.

He calmly mentioned how bad of an idea that was. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIOC9PNpxY)

After all, inserting an armed white guy into the maelstrom with:
1. No authorization from local,county, state, or federal authorities.
2. No command and control
3. No backup
4. No teammates.
5. No extraction.
6. No communication
7. No actual training in urban combat-only some pistol oriented ccw classes
would almost certainly lead to me being killed, injured or in jail for a long time.

Of course the rational side of my 40+ year old brain agreed, and i stayed home.

I don't regret that decision, it was the correct one.

Oh, and i really liked that article you posted earlier in the thread. Guess that makes me a curmudgeon too.

Why did all of the adults who could have stopped this from happening not stand up and say something?! They should be on trial.

[Totem Polar]

Re, the shirts v skins argument: If a vegan, out lesbian, bernie sanders supporting, crisis line volunteer was busybodying somewhere, trying to do something like render first aid and put out arson fires at a protest, and then she got attacked by a bunch of bearded, CIS actual white supremacists who were shouting “get her; fuck her!” while chasing her and hitting her with boards with wheels on each end, and pulling illegally carried gats, and she pulled out her own G19–due to documented fear of her life—and incidentally put a red-state, AR-owning, wagu beef-eating, whiskey drinking, child molester in the dirt, I’m pretty sure that A) I’d golf clap, and B) want her to have a no true bill if the situation warranted it.

JMO.

This is about justice, not jerseys—and any long time reader here knows that I’m not shy about sharing my opinion when it comes to social/cultural issues.

[HCM]

What principles are at play here?

Is it the principle that one can use lethal force to defend one's own property? Not really. While he may have been there for that reason at first, that kind of went away when he 'got out of the boat'.

Is it the principle that a 'reasonable man' can use lethal force to defend themselves from the imminent threat of grievous bodily harm? Indeed it is, even if he was there under questionable circumstances.

But doesn't that principle also apply to Grosscruz, had the shoot gone the other way? One could say that he and others were there for nefarious and questionable purposes, but then again, one could say that about Kyle too.

A desire and willingness to help is admirable. But there also needs to be an honest assessment of one's ability to help.

We see this all the time in search & rescue. Lost hiker? Lost family member? There will be volunteers, and their willingness to help is appreciated. But unless they're already on an organized team, most will be some combination of unfit, untrained, unskilled, or unequipped to participate safely and make a positive contribution to the effort. If they go out on a search they become liabilities. If they want to stay at the command post and help keep the searchers fed? Great! Happy to have them.

Sometimes the best way to be useful is not to be on the front line.

Not really - Rittenhouse was cleaning graffiti, providing first aid, and putting out arson fires. The others you refer to were setting arson fires, painting graffiti, and assaulting people.

Grosskreutz was part of the pursuit of Rittenhouse, and approached him, gun in hand, and then pointed it at him. Rittenhouse was attempting to leave. Had Grosskreutz shot Rittenhouse at the same moment he was shot by Rittenhouse, or burned him down from behind just before Rittenhouse took down the skateboard guy, his action would not have been any more justified than the physical assaults or just pointing a gun at Rittenhouse was. KR only shot at people who were already attacking him. Grosskreutz was with those people, and then pointed a gun at him.

Rittenhouse may well have aspired to cleaning graffiti, providing first aid, and putting out arson fires he did not actually do any of that that evening. Conservatives debasing ourselves with half truths makes us just as bad as the left.

This should be retitled The Movie thread because it's full of projection.

Gaige Grosskreutz is a piece of shit, member of an ANTIFA affiliate with a lengthy criminal record including an expunged felony and a prior for trespassing while recording the license plate numbers of police officers personal vehicles.

That established, he serves the same function in his group (street medic) that Rittenhouse aspired to perform in the militia group he was out with that night. They are, in many respects mirror images of each other, including both being dumbasses for being out on the streets that night. They were both "out of the boat" and both are lucky they are still alive. I have more sympathy for Rittenhouse because he's 17 and who isn't a dumbass at 17 ? But that is a subjective, not an objective factor just like Grooskreutz being a commie piece of shit is subjective.

As has already been detailed up thread, the standard for use of force is reasonableness not factual correctness. As such two people can be in a situation where they use force on each other under an objective reasonable belief they are acting legally.

Just as I believe Rittenhouse should not have been charged and his politics should not have played a role in that decision, the law doesn't care that Grosskreutz is a commie piece of shit because an objective argument can be made that he acted on the factual basis of Rittenhouse fleeing a homicide. Equality before the law is a thing.

[0ddl0t]

Re, the shirts v skins argument: If a vegan, out lesbian, bernie sanders supporting, crisis line volunteer was busybodying somewhere, trying to do something like render first aid and put out arson fires at a protest, and then she got attacked by a bunch of bearded, CIS actual white supremacists who were shouting “get her; fuck her!” while chasing her and hitting her with boards with wheels on each end, and pulling illegally carried gats, and she pulled out her own G19–due to documented fear of her life—and incidentally put a red-state, AR-owning, wagu beef-eating, whiskey drinking, child molester in the dirt, I’m pretty sure that A) I’d golf clap

Would you still golf clap knowing she:

1) voiced a desire to shoot white supremacists on sight (is it on site or on sight?)
2) Was not legally allowed to carry her G19
3) admitted to brandishing her G19 towards white supremacists earlier that night
4) The dumpster fire igniting white supremacist that she killed had just been released from a mental hospital that day, was unable to fill his prescription because the pharmacies were closed from the "mostly peaceful protests," and was suicidal & had been asking/taunting the other vegans to please shoot him (the others ignored him and testified that they did not see him a threat)


...or might you consider some of the lesser charges like recklessly endangering safety?

[Oldherkpilot]

Okay imagine this opposite of KR - RK - is an antifa devotee captured on video saying he wanted to shoot unmasked people protesting vaccine mandates.

A few days later he shows up at a protest with an AK47 even though he's violating curfew and a gun law about minors in possession of firearms. Worse, he is repeatedly seen pointing it at protestors when no imminent threat existed. His behavior is bad enough that other antifa folks begin to distance themselves from him.

An unmasked conservative protestor starts coughing on antifa counterprotestors and RK steps in, getting into a shouting & shoving match. RK starts to run away as the conservative gives chase, throwing a grocery bag full of Ivermectin at him. At the same moment, someone else fires a gun. RK wheels around and shoots the conservative.

A number of other conservatives attempt to make a citizen's arrest of RK, one of whom is using a maglight to hit RK. RK shoots that person. Another conservative draws his gun and again attempts to arrest RK. RK shoots him too.

Later we learn RK has previously punched a girl. And, after a national antifa groups bail him out, he is seen wearing a "free as fuck" shirt and and flashing a black power sign.

What, no aliens or flying pigs in this alternate universe?

[Borderland]

What, no aliens or flying pigs in this alternate universe?

It's a comic book scenario. You may have missed the satire.

[Borderland]

Re, the shirts v skins argument: If a vegan, out lesbian, bernie sanders supporting, crisis line volunteer was busybodying somewhere, trying to do something like render first aid and put out arson fires at a protest, and then she got attacked by a bunch of bearded, CIS actual white supremacists who were shouting “get her; fuck her!” while chasing her and hitting her with boards with wheels on each end, and pulling illegally carried gats, and she pulled out her own G19–due to documented fear of her life—and incidentally put a red-state, AR-owning, wagu beef-eating, whiskey drinking, child molester in the dirt, I’m pretty sure that A) I’d golf clap, and B) want her to have a no true bill if the situation warranted it.

JMO.

This is about justice, not jerseys—and any long time reader here knows that I’m not shy about sharing my opinion when it comes to social/cultural issues.

That's just great. That's probably going to fuel some weird ass dreams in my sleep tonight.

[donlapalma]

That's just great. That's probably going to fuel some weird ass dreams in my sleep tonight.

Right? I think he just wrote the next Coen brother movie.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Borderland]

Right? I think he just wrote the next Coen brother movie.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Can't wait. Maybe he's in the wrong business.