And there you have it...Originally Posted by ccmdfd
Is this a great country or what?
And there you have it...
Is this a great country or what?
There's nothing civil about this war.
Not being a lawyer, the idea of the lesser charges rankles me (as I said before). I read the nuances of the various charges, motivation, etc. That's all just a ploy to get a befuddled, frozen jury to drop a life destroying felony on Rittenhouse. A significant prison sentence of some length and the classification as a felon toasts him in the future.
As a juror (and what do I know), I would see through this and decide on a total walk or the first major charges. Some compromise is not a compromise as the lesser charges are life changing for Rittenhouse.
I wrote this elsewhere about how the Rittenhouse and Arbery trials plus political demonstrations display of weapons are causing rethinking of standard SD viewpoints on weapons, property, display of weapons, citizens arrest, etc. An interesting point is that the more lethal nature of the AR platforms changes the game about usage and display of weapons. That ties in with the debate of what is needed for SD in the typical situation. Grandma with her SW Model 10 or Joe's double barrel. Heller pointed polite gun ownership in that direction. Now, Thomas and Scalia objected but were never able to deal with that later.
The fall of a justice society and the protection of law was a point on Meet the Press today.
Probably this will all blow over and nothing much will change. Still the shelves of an Erie County Cabelas is loaded down with 223. It's not going to the deer paradigm.The basis of pointing guns for SD, protecting property, the definitions of citizen's arrest and appropriate levels of force is being re-examined in legal journals given the new phenomena of open carry of AR level guns and the failure of government to stop disturbances quickly. If you like to get into the weeks, search for:
Ferzan, Kimberly Kessler, "Taking Aim at Pointing Guns? Start with Citizen’s Arrest, Not Stand Your
Ground:
A Reply to Joseph Blocher, Samuel W. Buell, Jacob D. Charles, and Darrell A.H. Miller, Pointing
Guns, 99 Texas L. Rev. 1173 (2021)" (2021). Faculty Scholarship at Penn Law. 2704.
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/fa...holarship/2704
Read the Ferzan and the Blocker articles.
Standard analyses have been that lethal force to protect property hasn't been looked at favorably. See:
Killing in Self-Defence (Oxford Monographs on Criminal Law and Justice)
by Fiona Leverick | Feb 8, 2007
It's a deep dive and a technical law book but a good read. Exceptions have been when the property itself was crucial to maintain life (steal my cattle or medicine that is irreplaceable).
Is that changing will be the issue?
Another relevant read is:
Payback: The Case for Revenge
by Thane Rosenbaum | Apr 10, 2013
It discusses when a society fail to provide a justice society - which is competent and fair implementation of the social contract to provide safety and just criminal actions. The society becomes a tribal, local, revengeful and violent one. If our current governments fail to do this, we will fall into the failed societies we see around the world. Some of our cities seem to be going that way.
I know these are deep dives for the Internet, but that's what has to be considered vs. emotional responses.
About that. America’s real paper of record is accurate on that point:The president said he was a white supremacist. Isn't that evidence enough? I mean, who would doubt anything that comes out of his mouth?
Antifa Asks The Proud Boys How To Recruit An African American Member
https://babylonbee.com/news/antifa-l...merican-member
PORTLAND, OR—Local Antifa rioter Preston Asher, right in the middle of burning down a black-owned business, began to wonder why the racist Proud Boys had so many black members and they didn’t.
“I mean we are the ones that are anti-facism and anti-racist, but not a single one of us even knows a black guy,” said the Antifa member. “What could we be doing wrong?”
“I mean just look at all of these destroyed cop cars, graffitied walls, and buildings we burnt down for justice. How do they not see that we are the good guys?”
It was at that moment Asher knew he had to go to the Proud Boys and learn their secrets. So he took off his face mask and walked over to their tent to get answers.
“Yeah, don’t get us wrong we are a lot of things like violent, dangerously nationalistic, and obnoxious, but it’s probably how we just don’t judge people by skin color,” said Proud Boy member Lars Macon. “Also, have you tried letting other people speak instead of speaking for them?”
“But how else will they know what to be offended by and how to stop it unless I tell them?” Asher replied. “This doesn’t make sense. I knew I should have never tried talking to you Neo-Nazis!”
He then stormed off and went back and told the other Antifa members that the Proud Boys were obviously keeping those African American members there against their will. So, they all responded by returning to burning down more local small businesses.
Many years ago I knew some people who had been on the periphery of the Bill Riccio group down here when they were teens. I heard stories I have no reason to believe were fabrications. @HCM speaks the truth.
(This post isn’t inferring that Rittenhouse was an actual Neo-Nazi)
In my case, two long blocks.
I do not wish to revisit that sort of situation again, and would go to some lengths to prevent it from being visited upon my neighborhood.
I have no doubt that vigilantes will appear in some places if another wave of riots & arson occurs. The firearms sales here have not really slowed down.
Behind the photographer is an area where there were shop owners and landlords successfully guarding against arsonists; those businesses were undamaged and uninterrupted. The SPPD was not really on board with the methods and tools, but the folks there were fully in compliance with state and local laws.
And yes, nullification all day long for armed citizens if the alternative to their acts was being burned out of their homes or murdered.
Last edited by Lex Luthier; 11-14-2021 at 02:44 PM.
"If I ever needed to hunt in a tuxedo, then this would be the rifle I'd take." - okie john
"Not being able to govern events, I govern myself." - Michel De Montaigne
More specifically, Rittenhouse was associated with a self-described militia group known as the Kenosha Guard. It is unclear to me the extent to which this organization existed beyond a Facebook call to arms to protect property in the wake of the Jacob Blake death, and does not seem to have existed before the local unrest.
While it is alleged that members of the group overlapped with more radical right-wing movements such as the Proud Boys and Bugaloo groups, I’ve not seen credible evidence that the Kenosha Guard webpage espoused anti-government, anti-police, anti-immigrant, or white supremacy ideology. I will agree that calling themselves a militia was rather stupid, and we would probably be having a different conversation if their Facebook page was entitled “Kenosha Mother’s for Individual Liberty and Freedom” (aka Kenosha MILF).
I have no problem believing that the extremes on the right and left balance each other in terms of distasteful activities. However, is it accurate to lump the Kenosha Guard in with hardcore right-wing groups?
I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.
I'm confused by the direction this thread has taken. And I think it's a reflection of the fact that reality is nuanced and black and white are really shades of grey.
Rittenhouse should NOT have been present there; but his presence there resulted in him dirtnapping a couple of people who needed dirtnaps.
Two things can be true.
I do not think Rittenhouse is guilty of murder or even manslaughter. I think he's guilty of bad decisions, and possibly of a gun law violation, and if I had it my way Rittenhouse's Mother would be getting kicked in the twat like her son is getting kicked in the dick. For me, much more infuriating, is that we've arrived at a point where we now say, "He's 17 and made his choices." And we've effectively relieved Mom from parental responsibility and I think that's inappropriate. If Rittenhouse had gotten whacked in the back of head a bit more for doing stupid shit, maybe he would have been at home studying or taking a date to the movies or what the fuck ever. And simultaneous to that, if parents were held responsible for the actions of their children, then maybe there wouldn't have been a fucking riot to begin with.
But I'm getting old and cranky and I'm finding it difficult to be sympathetic any longer to the ill behaving children of ostensible adults. And I'm quickly arriving at a point where I am wondering if 'hickory shampoo' should take on two meanings. Switches for kids and parents and batons for rioters.
The right is no more monolithic than the left.
Militia / Iii% groups are far right but they are their own thing with different focus than so called “alt-right” groups like the proud boys and neither is “racial.” Militia groups have more of an ideological focus and focus on “operations” and “contingencies” than the political activism focus of the alt-right.
Even within the small non affiliated groups there are a surprising number of people with serious criminal records, which they often hide from their group. It’s common enough that some militia groups specifically screen for prohibited persons and sex offenders to avoid issues.
My suspicion is that had Kyle been a good Roof Korean, and stuck to the bit of private property he came to protect, he'd most likely be GTG, legally speaking. Even if he dirtnapped the same amount of scumbags.
Stepping off that property with a firearm openly displayed was a Stupid. Even with noble intentions, it was stupid. If he was out and about to clean graffiti, put out fires, and render first aid, then he should have left the AR behind. If the circumstances were too dangerous to venture out unarmed, then they are too dangerous to venture out. Especially for an untrained, inexperienced teenager carrying a gun under very questionable legal sanction.
If he was out with an AR under the desire to intimidate rioters- that's a double serving of extra stupid with fail on top. The scumbag rioters were not at all intimidated by Kyle or the rest of his group.
"You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
"I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI
Right, but did anyone at his trial raise the point that had it not been for the hordes of violent rioters KR wouldn’t have been there. Nor would anyone else that was there in a similar capacity.
This is one of those rare events where post hoc ergo propter hoc is actually a reality.
