List of Departments Authorizing and or Issuing MRDS for duty sidearms

[AMC]

Fayetteville NC PD is now putting dots out for use in patrol. I saw one in the wild last week and spoke with the officer. From what he was saying it’s a short transition class that’s included with the yearly qualification. Glock 17s and using non-OEM plates to mount these Holosun optics.

Attachment 85970

I've seen several agencies take this "Here's the optic...just qual with it and you're good" approach, and I strongly disagree with it. Training new shooters from the get go with an optic is a transparent process, and likely makes learning a bit easier for some folks. But taking in-service cops and handing them new equipment without adequate training (which is a massive near-universal failing in our profession) is bad juju, period. Especially when this new equipment changes how you aim and engage with your bullet launcher. Passing a qual is generally a meaningless accomplishment.

[KeeFus]

I've seen several agencies take this "Here's the optic...just qual with it and you're good" approach, and I strongly disagree with it. Training new shooters from the get go with an optic is a transparent process, and likely makes learning a bit easier for some folks. But taking in-service cops and handing them new equipment without adequate training (which is a massive near-universal failing in our profession) is bad juju, period. Especially when this new equipment changes how you aim and engage with your bullet launcher. Passing a qual is generally a meaningless accomplishment.

Unless he misspoke or I misunderstood… that’s what it seemed like. FPD has a robust firearms training program so I’d like to think there is more. I will ask around and see what I can find out.

[KeeFus]

Followup. 4-5 hour red dot transition class in conjunction with qualifications.

FWIW, It seems the officers are doing well with the dogs.

[AMC]

Followup. 4-5 hour red dot transition class in conjunction with qualifications.

FWIW, It seems the officers are doing well with the dogs.

I'd be curious to know if that means "doing well on the static qual" or doing well overall. Having done the Sig Academy Pistol Mounted Optics Instructor course, and shooting maybe 300 rounds a week on a dot, on a variety of drills and exercises, I am still faster and just as accurate inside 10 yards with irons. Outside 10 yards it's a game changer for my aging eyes. Getting there is a process....and I'm still at the beginning of that process.

I just don't think a 4-5 hour course is sufficient to make this change. Guys with way more time on the dot than me like @SoCalDep and @Erick Gelhaus could maybe chime in

[HCM]

True, but they would need to have a contract to do that. Meaning they either have to use a contract that another agency has, that allows their Glocks to be modified, or they have to start the process to get a new contract. Does that ICE contract allow for other pistols, or just P320s?

To follow up on this, the ICE contract for the SIG P320 is for the “P320 Pistol system,” the key word being “System.” Essentially anything SIG sells for the P320, optics, slides, suppressors etc is part of the “system” and can be purchased via the contract with little or no modifications.

You seem familiar with the time, hassle, and expense involved in federal contracts and so conversely the benefits of a “system” contract.

Meanwhile in the executive washroom at SIG:

[SoCalDep]

I'd be curious to know if that means "doing well on the static qual" or doing well overall. Having done the Sig Academy Pistol Mounted Optics Instructor course, and shooting maybe 300 rounds a week on a dot, on a variety of drills and exercises, I am still faster and just as accurate inside 10 yards with irons. Outside 10 yards it's a game changer for my aging eyes. Getting there is a process....and I'm still at the beginning of that process.

I just don't think a 4-5 hour course is sufficient to make this change. Guys with way more time on the dot than me like @SoCalDep and @Erick Gelhaus could maybe chime in

A qual or 4-5hr class or 8hr class is enough to check the "deliberate indifference" box but not enough to really build proficiency.

We do a 16hr class and I see people who complete it who I would not consider prepared for a lethal encounter. In fact, today I had a very raw talk with a group who completed our 16hr class.

The pistol optic can be, and in many cases is a game-changer for skills, but it's not as easy a transition as most people think. They stand at a few different range markers, shoot a qual with unrealistic time standards, and we tell them they are good. They met the "standard" and they think they are "good". Are they good on the move, with strong and support hand, when manipulating and stressed? That's why in our class, they pre-qual and in the class we don't tell them they are "good". We tell them to self evaluate and if they aren't totally confident they shouldn't carry the dot until they practice enough to be confident.

This won't be so much of an issue once everyone has grown up on the dot, but I've seen enough issues from those transitioning that the short "qual-based" programs are giving false confidence to people. They'll be fine if everything goes right. If not... well...

[cpd2110]

I work in a task force setting and am the head firearms instructor for my agency. We have two agencies in our group that allow dots, both did a couple hour transition course. My agency is doing a three day course that we started this year. My instructors felt it was the best amount of time to start and we will evaluate if it needs to go to two days. The first group taking the transition course was small and actually new firearms instructors. They all liked the three days as they felt it really allowed them a better understanding of the dot and issues. I can’t imagine only doing a few hours and calling it good.

[SoCalDep]

I work in a task force setting and am the head firearms instructor for my agency. We have two agencies in our group that allow dots, both did a couple hour transition course. My agency is doing a three day course that we started this year. My instructors felt it was the best amount of time to start and we will evaluate if it needs to go to two days. The first group taking the transition course was small and actually new firearms instructors. They all liked the three days as they felt it really allowed them a better understanding of the dot and issues. I can’t imagine only doing a few hours and calling it good.

I wish we could do three days. I know of at least a couple big agency firearms training units that wanted at least a two day class if not more and were only allowed to do a one day. One of those units had to fight because the department wanted it to be a four hour class.

[cpd2110]

I wish we could do three days. I know of at least a couple big agency firearms training units that wanted at least a two day class if not more and were only allowed to do a one day. One of those units had to fight because the department wanted it to be a four hour class.

We are fortunate here that the former Chief was a firearms instructor and former SWAT member/Commander. The current Chief is also a former SWAT Commander and Head DT instructor. They both get it and support us in what we do, plus we have a good budget for firearms related training and our own range. I think the range/budget play a factor for some places in that they may have limited access/ammo. The rest of it in my view is poor leadership and not getting it.

As good as we have it I once got lit up when I pushed back on a boss telling me we only needed 2 hours to train people on ballistic shield. And that training was only part of a larger piece where we had other items to fit into our normal range training. I lost the battle but we did small on shift training events for a year and than each firearms/tactics training we incorporated it to help bridge the gap. The total weight of what some administrators do not get when it comes to training is staggering. Just a "simple" shield training at minimum requires proper stance/use of the shield, stationary, moving, partners, reloading/malfunction, low light, incorporating K9 or less lethal to name just a few. The same goes for transitioning to a dot gun, in particular for older officers who likely will need more time to just start the real process of switching from the irons to the dot. The extra time helps.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Were I to be in a position to do this, it would be a 2-day transition class. Yes, ammo is really tight right now. Dry reps, lots of dry reps.