Interesting negotiation at a Toyota dealership today

[vcdgrips]

Late to the party. I scout with a guy who is the father of triplets, has money and married more money. They are on Toyota (Lexus) #14 as Toyota #13 was t-boned with daughter #1 in it.

He took the opportunity to buy a Rav 4 FWD only in a gunmetal grey at sticker price because that was the only one he could get. Period. Inventory of one. His salesperson of said 13 previous cars stated, the only reason you are getting this at sticker v sticker + 12% is because of our prior dealings. Historically, my guy was buying well under sticker to include a 2019 loaded Sienna that is the "FLA" house car.

In "normal times" this car would have been a complete NO GO as it is FWD v. AWD and the color for the daughter.

I work with a guy who "ordered" an AWD 2021 Sienna six months ago in anticipation of his son's birth. He will be trading in a lightly used Highlander as it is simply not as 4 kid friendly.

His van will be a 2022 now. His son is 4 months old and he still does not have a firm delivery date on the van. Occasionally, he will get an email with the opportunity to buy a FWD one w the entertainment package above sticker.

I have until Aug 23 on my lease, I hope this normalize by then.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have until Aug 23 on my lease, I hope this normalize by then.

If not, good opportunity to buy your lease out and flip for $$$.

[JRB]

As most of you know already, I've been an avid Toyota die-hard for almost the entire 25+ years I've been driving. I've had too many Toyotas to bother listing here, mostly Supras and MR2's with a couple of 4Runners and a Tundra here and there.

IMHO, Toyota really came into stride in the early-mid 90's and that went strong until around 2010-2011 or so. The Land Cruiser, 5th gen 4Runner, and the 2015 & earlier Tacomas are the last holdouts of that truly kick ass Toyota overbuilding. The new Supra is quite literally 100% BMW complete with all the BMW problems (it's a Z4 with Toyota badges) and pretty much every Toyota in-house product since 2017-2018ish seem to have suffered so many cost-cutting measures that they've taken all of the old Toyota out of them.
Lexus isn't quite as affected, but you can see it in some of their lower models like the IS. When in doubt, buy a model that is as Japanese-built as possible.

I recently rented a 2020 Corolla on a Thanksgiving trip, and we had it for 8 days. It got fantastic gas mileage (35-38mpg) and the trunk was bigger than expected, but absolutely everything else about the car felt cheap and sloppy compared to a buddy's '99 Camry with around 250k more miles on it.
The steering was touchy and darty on-center but vague and meh everywhere else. The brakes were very touchy at first but gave barely anything more as you pushed deep into the brake pedal. The engine sounded so buzzy and wheezy that I couldn't help but think it was engineered to sound like shit so more folks would choose a Prius or Camry Hybrid over the Corolla.
The infotainment required an app installed on our phone to display any nav or maps, but the app wanted to bind to the VIN number and when we tried to install it, the VIN kicked back for Toyota's app saying we couldn't use that VIN since we didn't own the car. So while GPS was clearly working because I got a little image of a speed limit sign in the gauge cluster that'd highlight in red any time I exceeded the speed limit, and it was incredibly accurate for a given road we were on (changing within seconds after passing a speed limit sign that changed the limit) none of the Nav worked the entire time we had the car.

I'm not sure I'll ever own a Toyota product made after about 2010 now.

[4RNR]

Late to the party. I scout with a guy who is the father of triplets, has money and married more money. They are on Toyota (Lexus) #14 as Toyota #13 was t-boned with daughter #1 in it.

He took the opportunity to buy a Rav 4 FWD only in a gunmetal grey at sticker price because that was the only one he could get. Period. Inventory of one. His salesperson of said 13 previous cars stated, the only reason you are getting this at sticker v sticker + 12% is because of our prior dealings. Historically, my guy was buying well under sticker to include a 2019 loaded Sienna that is the "FLA" house car.

In "normal times" this car would have been a complete NO GO as it is FWD v. AWD and the color for the daughter.

I work with a guy who "ordered" an AWD 2021 Sienna six months ago in anticipation of his son's birth. He will be trading in a lightly used Highlander as it is simply not as 4 kid friendly.

His van will be a 2022 now. His son is 4 months old and he still does not have a firm delivery date on the van. Occasionally, he will get an email with the opportunity to buy a FWD one w the entertainment package above sticker.

I have until Aug 23 on my lease, I hope this normalize by then.

A guy I know bought the new electric Mustang SUV thing. Drove it around for 3 months. Ultimately didn't like it so he sold it for more than he paid for it.

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[Balisong]

A guy I know bought the new electric Mustang SUV thing. Drove it around for 3 months. Ultimately didn't like it so he sold it for more than he paid for it.

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What didn't he like it about it? I think they look like ass but they're supposed to be amazing to drive.

I'm really torn right now. I badly want a 4runner in the current configuration. I'm about to start doing travel nursing and make good money, so I'll be ABLE to financially buy one in the next 2 or 3 months. But I also don't want to get screwed on paying way above MSRP or getting stuck with one that has crap I don't want on it. Then there's also the question of current QC. I thought being Japanese built it should be good to go, but this thread has me concerned.

[4RNR]

As most of you know already, I've been an avid Toyota die-hard for almost the entire 25+ years I've been driving. I've had too many Toyotas to bother listing here, mostly Supras and MR2's with a couple of 4Runners and a Tundra here and there.

IMHO, Toyota really came into stride in the early-mid 90's and that went strong until around 2010-2011 or so. The Land Cruiser, 5th gen 4Runner, and the 2015 & earlier Tacomas are the last holdouts of that truly kick ass Toyota overbuilding. The new Supra is quite literally 100% BMW complete with all the BMW problems (it's a Z4 with Toyota badges) and pretty much every Toyota in-house product since 2017-2018ish seem to have suffered so many cost-cutting measures that they've taken all of the old Toyota out of them.
Lexus isn't quite as affected, but you can see it in some of their lower models like the IS. When in doubt, buy a model that is as Japanese-built as possible.

I recently rented a 2020 Corolla on a Thanksgiving trip, and we had it for 8 days. It got fantastic gas mileage (35-38mpg) and the trunk was bigger than expected, but absolutely everything else about the car felt cheap and sloppy compared to a buddy's '99 Camry with around 250k more miles on it.
The steering was touchy and darty on-center but vague and meh everywhere else. The brakes were very touchy at first but gave barely anything more as you pushed deep into the brake pedal. The engine sounded so buzzy and wheezy that I couldn't help but think it was engineered to sound like shit so more folks would choose a Prius or Camry Hybrid over the Corolla.
The infotainment required an app installed on our phone to display any nav or maps, but the app wanted to bind to the VIN number and when we tried to install it, the VIN kicked back for Toyota's app saying we couldn't use that VIN since we didn't own the car. So while GPS was clearly working because I got a little image of a speed limit sign in the gauge cluster that'd highlight in red any time I exceeded the speed limit, and it was incredibly accurate for a given road we were on (changing within seconds after passing a speed limit sign that changed the limit) none of the Nav worked the entire time we had the car.

I'm not sure I'll ever own a Toyota product made after about 2010 now.

I feel exactly the same. My experience I wouldn't go past 20teens as a whole and certain models I won't go past mid 00s.

I'm on my 3rd Toyota in a row right now. Screen name!! I know, very original. Anyway ..... 07 4Runner V6 4x4 150k miles It has some of the quirks the 4th gen had but I've only had to do minor maintenance. Original gaskets all the way around and no leaks!

My previous was a 2010 Corolla. While the car was fine the interior was of such poor quality it was embarrassing. Thin brittle plastic. The door handle material was so thin an avg adult male (and probably female) could squeeze it together with a one hand grip. The elbow area of the door panel would fall in if accidentally leaned on. The center console lid was thin and flimsy. The radio digital display would look like the Predator arm controller when the weather got colder! The seats quickly collapsed and I'm not a fat guy. I noticed the same things on my dad's 2011 Camry and my mom's former 2010 Camry.

Meanwhile my car before the Corolla was an 01 Solara 2.2 4cyl (2dr Camry). Much better overall quality. Didn't feel like cheap hard or squishy plastic. I drove that car to 300k with little maintenance. Almost none with the exception of oil changes, water pumps and timing belts. The latter being every 100k miles. Even the rotors and starter were original. Back in the day I had a 98 Camry 4cyl. Mechanically same as the Solara. Amazing car! I don't remember the mileage on it but the maintenance was about the same as the Solara.

Forget this new techo crap. I want a reliable long lasting car not some shiny distractions. Car sucks but hey here's a shiny new button just for you!

Honestly, at this point I'm looking to buy clean, low mileage late 90s - early 00s cars. Or, depending on the car, even older. 93 Caprice? Great! 89 Caprice? Fine! 92 Civic? Yep!! I'd say there was a decade or so from 90-00 when most cars were well made (of course exceptions exist).



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[4RNR]

What didn't he like it about it? I think they look like ass but they're supposed to be amazing to drive.

I'm really torn right now. I badly want a 4runner in the current configuration. I'm about to start doing travel nursing and make good money, so I'll be ABLE to financially buy one in the next 2 or 3 months. But I also don't want to get screwed on paying way above MSRP or getting stuck with one that has crap I don't want on it. Then there's also the question of current QC. I thought being Japanese built it should be good to go, but this thread has me concerned.

I don't know he just said "it was bleh". Whatever that means. But this is a guy who bases good or bad on features more than function. He'll buy an expensive new car even if it has to live on a flatbed most of its ownership as long as it came with cool features and touchscreens and apps. Breaks down every other day but has 37 24in touchscreens? Yes please!! At the same time he'll call:a P.O.S anything thats old(er) but has more mileage than the space shuttle with little maintenance.

Not all Toyotas are Japanese built. I believe Camry and a bunch of others are for Kentucky...or Tennessee? But don't forget Toyota, like everyone else outsources parts too. They have OEM suppliers. For instance, Aisin makes their water pumps and a few other things.

Good luck with that. An acquaintance of mine sold his 2015 previously salvage for $35k in half a day. But it had fairly low miles. I think under 75k if I remember correctly. He bought it salvaged with like 25k on it. It was rolled. Fixed it and drove it some but then got a used Denali and only drove the 4Runner so it wouldn't just sit and rot.

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[Balisong]

I don't know he just said "it was bleh". Whatever that means. But this is a guy who bases good or bad on features more than function. He'll buy an expensive new car even if it has to live on a flatbed most of its ownership as long as it came with cool features and touchscreens and apps. Breaks down every other day but has 37 24in touchscreens? Yes please!! At the same time he'll call:a P.O.S anything thats old(er) but has more mileage than the space shuttle with little maintenance.

Not all Toyotas are Japanese built. I believe Camry and a bunch of others are for Kentucky...or Tennessee? But don't forget Toyota, like everyone else outsources parts too. They have OEM suppliers. For instance, Aisin makes their water pumps and a few other things.

Good luck with that. An acquaintance of mine sold his 2015 previously salvage for $35k in half a day. But it had fairly low miles. I think under 75k if I remember correctly. He bought it salvaged with like 25k on it. It was rolled. Fixed it and drove it some but then got a used Denali and only drove the 4Runner so it wouldn't just sit and rot.

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I appreciate the input, thanks. According to the 4runner forums the 4runner is still made in Japan, but there's talk that it will move to Mexico in the next couple years. That's among the reasons I kind of want to get one now. But you definitely make a good point about the parts manufacturers.

[JRB]

I appreciate the input, thanks. According to the 4runner forums the 4runner is still made in Japan, but there's talk that it will move to Mexico in the next couple years. That's among the reasons I kind of want to get one now. But you definitely make a good point about the parts manufacturers.

The QA/QC on the Japanese production lines is much better, as is the QA/QC for all of the Japanese produced contract components from the usual suspects like Aisin, Denso, etc. The Land Cruiser and the 4Runner were the last two US delivered Toyotas made in Japan, AFAIK.

Personally I've seen nothing new from the 4runner over the past 5 years that isn't easily handled by a paintjob or the aftermarket. I'd be strongly inclined to spend $25-30k on a 2014-2016 model I liked vs twice as much for a brand new one with COVID-19 affected parts and QA/QC just to have warranty coverage of perpetually waning value.

[farscott]

The QA/QC on the Japanese production lines is much better, as is the QA/QC for all of the Japanese produced contract components from the usual suspects like Aisin, Denso, etc. The Land Cruiser and the 4Runner were the last two US delivered Toyotas made in Japan, AFAIK.

Personally I've seen nothing new from the 4runner over the past 5 years that isn't easily handled by a paintjob or the aftermarket. I'd be strongly inclined to spend $25-30k on a 2014-2016 model I liked vs twice as much for a brand new one with COVID-19 affected parts and QA/QC just to have warranty coverage of perpetually waning value.

I have heard the above from more than one person, but the data shows it is not true. While Japanese built vehicles used to be better than ones built elsewhere, the gap has closed. Toyota now uses parts globally, so a part in a Kentucky-built Camry is also in a Japanese-built LX. I know as I have the same parts on everything from Camry to RAV4 to all of the Lexus sedans and SUVs. The Toyota Production System does a good job of eliminating the human issues in assembly. Thus, not much difference in vehicle quality based on build location.

Toyota engineering personnel are also not what they once were and now more resemble the program managers as used by the once "Big 3".

As for when the shortage ends, it appears it will not be in 2022 unless we experience a severe economic contraction in 2022. Lead times for many components and raw materials are coming in above 52 weeks. This week I got a 90 week lead time, but that was down from 102 weeks ten weeks ago.