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Thread: An ill informed and perhaps wrong look at 3 dot sights

  1. #1
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    An ill informed and perhaps wrong look at 3 dot sights

    I’ve recently been switching back and forth between RDS and iron sights. My carry gun, a PX4cc has a red dot on it, and my beretta 92 doesn’t. I’ve been putting rounds through a range rental sig M11 too, and strangely enough have *mostly* been shooting it better than my LTT 92 centurion. After a grip swap and a sight swap (thicker grips and a WC les pep rear/ameriglo front sight) I’m shooting the 92 pretty well, which is nice.

    Anyway, what I’ve been noticing is that when swapping back and forth between RDS and irons, I’m treating the amount of sight movement I’m getting with irons the same as with the red dot, which has resulted in less than stellar accuracy at 25 yards and even at 10-15 yards. I shoot target focused, and it seems like superimposing the orange ring on the front sight over the target (as I would with a dot) negatively effects my accuracy because I end up neglecting the front sights alignment within the rear sight. The 3 dot sights on the M11 seem to allow me to superimpose both the front and rear sights over the target and let me maintain the relationship between front and rear sights a little better.

    This realization holds true out to 15 or so yards, but I just don’t shoot as well with irons as with a dot at 25 yards. The drill this difference was most apparent on was Claude Werners version of the 5 hat 5 oddly enough, it was easiest to read sight alignment with the red dot followed by the the 3 dot setup on the M11.

    Granted, I may just shoot the M11 better than the beretta, but sights have to have something to do with that, right?

  2. #2
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    On your 92, how are you using your rear sight as a reference?

  3. #3
    Larry Mudgett taught me the importance of attention to the REAR sight- at longer distances it is absolutely critical. Many of us have had so much “front sight, press” impressed onto us over the years that this simple step can make a big difference.

  4. #4
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Here are a few things that may help:

    Lighting makes a big difference. At least for now, try to find good, and balanced lighting for your front (and especially) rear sights.

    Pay attention to the top corners of the front sight, and the inside top corners of the rear notch. Even if they are blurry, that will provide better alignment than dots.

    Try dry firing 20-50 presentations per day to build a good index / natural point of aim.

    You mentioned "sight movement". That's different than sight alignment. Can you explain?
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    I shoot target focused, and it seems like superimposing the orange ring on the front sight over the target (as I would with a dot) negatively effects my accuracy because I end up neglecting the front sights alignment within the rear sight.
    This is your problem.

    Target focus works with irons at short range because you accept a certain degree of misalignment in your sight picture to gain speed. You still get hits but the groups are larger than they would be had you aligned the sights properly.

    To see this—and to determine how much misalignment is acceptable—hang a target at five yards and fire three slow, careful shots with the sights perfectly aligned. You should get a cloverleaf centered on the target. Then fire three with the front sight touching the left edge of the rear sight. You should get a cloverleaf left of center. Then fire three with the front sight touching the right edge of the rear sight. You should get a cloverleaf right of center. Then fire three with the front dot fully above the notch and three with the dot fully below the notch. You should get cloverleaves above and below center.

    When you shoot iron sights with a target focus, you essentially do this at random so your groups are much larger than when you use a conventional sight picture. The displacement will increase with distance—repeating this exercise at 10 yards will show the same results but the groups will be twice as far from center as they were at five yards. You'll be all over the paper at 25 yards and probably off the paper at 50.

    Distance demands a hard focus on the front sight and proper sight alignment. More distance generally means more time, so slow down and focus on the front sight. It’s not hard to stay on an IPSC or IDPA target at 100 yards with iron sights, but you have to focus on the front sight and align the sights properly.

    Once you get used to that, it's not hard to speed things up again.


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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinmove_ View Post
    On your 92, how are you using your rear sight as a reference?
    Essentially I’m trying to break shots when the bright dot of my front sight is within the rear notch, and the rear notch is bisecting my target.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Here are a few things that may help:

    Lighting makes a big difference. At least for now, try to find good, and balanced lighting for your front (and especially) rear sights.

    Pay attention to the top corners of the front sight, and the inside top corners of the rear notch. Even if they are blurry, that will provide better alignment than dots.

    Try dry firing 20-50 presentations per day to build a good index / natural point of aim.

    You mentioned "sight movement". That's different than sight alignment. Can you explain?
    Lighting is certainly something I haven’t played with enough regarding sights.

    I think this ties in with lighting, but I have a hard time seeing the top edge of the front sight when shooting fast (which for me isn’t that fast, like .25 or so splits) I need to do more experimentation, but it seems to be easier to manage with a .125 front sight and the les pep rear, which has wider ledges on either side of the notch than the stock rear.

    When I say sight movement, I’m trying to talk about how I perceive the sights or dot returning to an acceptable target area and telling me that it’s ok to press the trigger again. With a dot, all I have to do is make sure the dot is within that area and press the shot, whether it’s moving or not. It seems like part of my issue is applying that same thinking to iron sights while largely ignoring the alignment of the front sight within the rear sight, so I suppose I’m talking about sight alignment or the lack thereof?

    Apologies if that’s not more clear, it’s been a hell of a week.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer1440 View Post
    Larry Mudgett taught me the importance of attention to the REAR sight- at longer distances it is absolutely critical. Many of us have had so much “front sight, press” impressed onto us over the years that this simple step can make a big difference.
    Listening to people like les kismartoni and Tim Herron talk about iron sights has been a big part of my interest in iron sights lately.

  9. #9
    Member Sal Picante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    Listening to people like les kismartoni and Tim Herron talk about iron sights has been a big part of my interest in iron sights lately.
    Look, I'm really sorry for that... No hard feelings, ok?


  10. #10
    Try running a drill like this.

    Place a 3X5 on Chest and Head area at 7 yards. Place a 1" circle dot with a contrasting but not violently so color, like green or blue, at the upper end of the Head 3X5.

    Run 3 to Chest TF, 2 to Head TF, 1 to 1" dot FSF, 2 to Head TF, 1 to 1" dot FSF, reload, 2 to Head TF, 2 to 1" dot FSF, 5 to chest TF.

    Take a few breaths then

    Run 1 to Head TF, 1 to 1" dot TF, 1 to Head TF, 1 to 1" dot TF.

    Essentially the RDO is giving you an instant verification of your index, but quickly switching between TF and FSF can help you develop that with irons. This doesn't eliminate the need for a proper FSF on certain challenges but it will help reinforce the index needed to make TF hits at speed. You can practice this by holding a pen out and quickly switching your focus whenever you have a spare minute, although it will get you some weird looks on the elevator.

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