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Thread: When to upgrade?

  1. #11
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    Appreciate the advice. Angular vs parallel deviation was actually part of that class. Blew. My. Mind.

  2. #12
    Member SecondsCount's Avatar
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    I always looked at my mentors, such as Todd Green, who could shoot a sub five second FAST drill with a stock trigger and sights on several pistols. Until I am able to do that, I think twice before modifying my pistols.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  3. #13
    Member DMF13's Avatar
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    Since no one else mentioned it, there is some.gear you need to buy if haven't already.

    1. Shot timer for live fire.
    2. Shot timer, or app for your phone, that will allow you to set par times when dry firing. Any good shot timer will let you do a par time, but its a bit tedious to reset the timer for each rep. JCN recently recommended the Dry Practice Drill app, which will let you set up strings with multiple reps, built in reset delays, and descending par times. It only costs a couple bucks, and makes dry fire much less tedious.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...hl=en_US&gl=US

    https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dry-pr...ll/id828121161
    _______________
    "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here I am. Send me." - Isaiah 6:8

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I was discussing basically this earlier today, with a lead red dot instructor for a major Phoenix area department. Over and over, he has seen LE shooters move to a Sig X5 Legion with a dot, and make major performance gains. A Glock takes more skill for attaining a comparable level of performance. Of course, the Glock has many other virtues.
    In researching this thread I came across your post here. It's some jedi master level observations.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF13 View Post
    As others have said, fundamentals of trigger control, gun handling, and visual processing, are way more important than the gun itself.


    That said, I'm saving up for a MRDS and Glock 19 MOS. A fair question is, "why, when I can't carry that type of gun," but I've said I'm concentrating on what I carry. JCN convinced me, despite some initial skepticism on my part, that training with a red dot on a pistol can improve performance with irons. JCN loaned me a Glock slide with a MRDS, and I've been splitting my dry fire between the red dot and irons, for the past 8 weeks. While the gains I've made are mostly due to the training plan JCN has us on, the red dot work has helped a great deal too. So, while I can't carry a gun with a MRDS right now, working with it does translate into gains with what I carry, and I've seen enough value in it that I will spend the money to continue training that way.

    TLDR: "It's the shooter, not the gun, that matters."
    Appreciate it. I've actually been following your SIRT and MantisX/DFM threads and have found that we have been on a very similar path with training aids. I will have to look into integrating RDS into my practice routine more as well.

  6. #16
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    There was a similar thread to this a couple of years ago about upgrading Glocks or changing platforms. I don't remember the details, but I do @GJM telling someone to dig deep down and learn how to run the Glock trigger. About this time there was some discussion in another thread about how few people can reliably hit two inch dots from seven yards. It wasn't clear to me what I needed to do to dig deep down and learn the Glock trigger. I started spending a third to half my range time slow firing at two inch dots from seven yards, hoping that was the path I should take. I also ran a whole lot of ball and dummy drills, as per instructions in Bill Rogers' book After a while, my ability to isolate my trigger finger movement significantly increased. I am a much better shooter now. I am not as consistent as I need to be, but my good is much better than it used to be. On a good day, I can hit 10/10 two inch dots from seven yards with my stock G19. I have lots and lots of room for improvement, but I'm still years away from out shooting my pistol. My suggestion is to buy 20 dummy rounds and 100 LTT targets wit the two inch dots up and down each side.

    Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

  7. #17
    Certainly lots of good advice here. I don’t know your exact location, but I would respectfully suggest the following:
    1)Safely handle your Glock daily if you can, with a plan. I think it was John Hearne who said just 10 good draws and snaps(dry fire) daily would be of solid benefit-if you do it correctly.
    2)Along that line, get some more quality instruction. There are some here that are “self taught”(@JCN) or highly motivated (@GJM and his wife), but most of us mortals will benefit from some dedicated, immersive instruction/training.
    3)Consider some competition for a bit of “controlled pressure”. If you have a Glock, I’ll put in a plug for the Glock Sport Shooting Foundation. Relatively simple courses, but the competition emphasizes “Fundamentals”. No drawing, moving, speed loads, etc.,but just shooting multiple targets from the ready. You really are just shooting for yourself-and see how your shooting compares. GSSF has a rimfire (G44) if that helps. Other disciplines-USPSA, IDPA, bullseye, etc. all good.
    4)-and I should have typed this first-set or have measurable objectives, at least initially. I value the drills section here.
    What do you want to do? Check defensive skills-5 yard roundup or similar. Accuracy? The “Test”, Super Test, FBI bullseye, etc. Tom Givens newsletter (“Rangemaster”) has a drill of the the month-and so on…
    Best wishes for your journey…

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Yute View Post
    For those of you who have upgraded triggers, barrels, or upgraded your gun to a different platform, at what point in your shooting journey you decide to bite the bullet? Was there a "breaking point, or was it a gradual progression? Or did you not upgrade at all?

    Since seriously getting into shooting I've essentially shot and carried stock Glocks. For the last few months I've hit a plateau in my performance - no amount of self adjustments to grip/stance/sighting seemed to have any notable improvement.

    This all came to a head this month when I took an advanced pistol course with a dozen or so LEOs. I was completely outclassed, particularly at speed and distance. It was a humbling experience and extremely valuable; I realized that in order to progress, I have have to relearn all my shooting fundamentals from the ground up.

    At this point in my journey, the issue is more shooter than gear, but it was interesting to me that the vast majority of shooters in the class were using Staccatos and modified Glocks and Sig P320s. Iron sights shooters were in the minority. While some of the top shooters were using their bone stock department guns, it did make me wonder at what point should a shooter contemplate upgrades, if at all.

    There has always been some internal resistance within myself to upgrade because my issued sidearm is a M17 which I can never modify. I worry about using upgrades as a crutch instead of fixing problems with my fundamentals. Will I be using an upgrade to maximize my performance, or as a shortcut instead of putting in the hard work required?

    How did you make that decision, if at all? Thanks!
    Can you share who taught the class? Either way, it sounds like a good one.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Yute View Post
    There has always been some internal resistance within myself to upgrade because my issued sidearm is a M17 which I can never modify.
    This is a good thing. It frees you from distraction and forces you to focus on the basics. Not to get all philosophical, but there are no advanced skills in shooting, only the basics applied under conditions of increasing difficulty. And the expert is the guy who gets the basics right every time.

    Here are a few things that I've learned from years of chasing accuracy in Glocks.

    The Shooter
    With pistols, nailing the basics requires a certain amount of strength. The best way to increase accuracy in Glock pistols is to increase your core strength, upper body strength, and grip strength. This helps you shoot everything better. So does dry firing. From there, you have to nail the fundamentals: stance, grip, sight alignment, and trigger control. They’re all vital and they’re all covered in detail in lots of places, so I won’t go into them. But the list is not complete without follow through. Without it, you throw away everything else you’ve done, literally at the last possible split-second. Pat McNamara says that follow-through is checking your work through your sights, and that you should regain a good sight picture as soon as the shot is fired so that you always have one sight picture more than the number of shots you fired. Fire one shot, get two sight pictures. Fire two shots, get three sight pictures.

    Also, do a Google search for “the shooter’s wheel of misfortune”. It can help you diagnose issues with your grip and trigger press.

    The Ammunition
    A while ago, I spent a couple of years testing nearly 20 different factory loads in several Glock pistols. I learned that a load that groups well in one Glock may not group well in another. Test ammo by shooting several ten-shot groups with each load. You will see little or no difference until you get to 25 yards, and 50 yards is better. Keep notes. You may find a load that cuts your groups in half. Duty-grade JHP ammo is usually more accurate than FMJ practice ammo but that's a low bar. Most FMJ ammo is crap, especially bulk reloads. Good FMJ ammo can be nearly as accurate as good JHP ammo in some pistols, but a lot of it will barely hold a 10” group at 25 yards. Find an FMJ load that your pistol shoots well—it may not be the most expensive one—and buy several cases of it at a time.

    The Trigger
    Shooting or dry-firing a pistol several thousand cycles can smooth out the trigger a lot more than you’d think. I also find that a clean, lubricated pistol is much easier to shoot well. It's unfashionable in some circles but I clean and lube my Glocks, especially the fire control parts, about every thousand rounds. The Glock trigger is difficult enough, so I see no need to complicate things by fighting months of accumulated fouling, dust, dirt, belly-button lint, etc., on every trigger press. Also, Glocks are so easy to strip that there’s no reason not to have a clean, properly lubricated pistol.

    The Sights & The Zero
    Sights matter a LOT and the best choice for each of us deserves its own thread. Zero matters at least as much as the sights themselves but is almost completely overlooked. Based on several years working on indoor ranges, I'd say that most shooters have no idea what a zero is. Most of the rest assume that their pistols are zeroed from the factory, or that centering their sights in the dovetail is adequate.

    They are wrong.

    Sorting out windage is simple: just shoot 10- or 20-shot groups and move the rear sight until you get the same number of hits left of the centerline as you have right of it. As your groups shrink, you become able to make hits farther and farther away, and your zero for elevation starts to matter. I don't trust any firearm to come from the factory properly zeroed but Glocks are especially bad in this respect—they can take a surprising amount of work to zero for elevation. I like a 25-yard zero because I can stay in the A-zone out to 50 without much change in POA, and I can stay on an IPSC target out to 100 or so by holding for the chin. Take the time you need to get a solid zero with good ammo and you’ll be way ahead.


    This is all a highly personal matter, so test ammo and sights on your own, try different zeros, and find what works best for you. But again, the fact that you're not allowed to alter your pistol is a very good thing. Some of the most beautiful poems in the English language are sonnets. Poets maintain that the rigid rules that govern the sonnet force them to work harder, which frees them to think more creatively.

    And so it can be with your Glock.

    Let us know if you have questions.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Yute View Post
    I was completely outclassed, particularly at speed and distance.
    ...
    interesting to me that the vast majority of shooters in the class were using Staccatos and modified Glocks and Sig P320s.
    The person that is smoking fast and accurate with a $3,000 pistol probably got fast and accurate before they spent all that money.

    A few years ago we bicycled from Cincinnati to Cleveland (in five segments), my two brothers in law were the two strongest riders, and damn if they didn't also have the best equipment.

    I am competitive, though I try to compete against myself. A few years ago I was shooting well and also enjoying shooting a forty two ounce 1911 with a sweet trigger, when I started to wonder if I was shooting well because I was shooting an easy pistol. So I bought an M&P and didn't change anything but the sights, and continued to shoot pretty well. I suspect this may be because I have been diligently shooting every single weekend year round for the last several years.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

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