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Thread: When to upgrade?

  1. #1
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    When to upgrade?

    For those of you who have upgraded triggers, barrels, or upgraded your gun to a different platform, at what point in your shooting journey you decide to bite the bullet? Was there a "breaking point, or was it a gradual progression? Or did you not upgrade at all?

    Since seriously getting into shooting I've essentially shot and carried stock Glocks. For the last few months I've hit a plateau in my performance - no amount of self adjustments to grip/stance/sighting seemed to have any notable improvement.

    This all came to a head this month when I took an advanced pistol course with a dozen or so LEOs. I was completely outclassed, particularly at speed and distance. It was a humbling experience and extremely valuable; I realized that in order to progress, I have have to relearn all my shooting fundamentals from the ground up.

    At this point in my journey, the issue is more shooter than gear, but it was interesting to me that the vast majority of shooters in the class were using Staccatos and modified Glocks and Sig P320s. Iron sights shooters were in the minority. While some of the top shooters were using their bone stock department guns, it did make me wonder at what point should a shooter contemplate upgrades, if at all.

    There has always been some internal resistance within myself to upgrade because my issued sidearm is a M17 which I can never modify. I worry about using upgrades as a crutch instead of fixing problems with my fundamentals. Will I be using an upgrade to maximize my performance, or as a shortcut instead of putting in the hard work required?

    How did you make that decision, if at all? Thanks!

  2. #2
    Gucci gear, Walmart skill Darth_Uno's Avatar
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    It took me a long time and a lot of money to figure out that fundamentals will beat cool gear every day of the week and twice on Sunday (especially if there's a match that Sunday).

    You'll likely benefit from better sights, and a good (I didn't say competition light) trigger break. For most shooters at a fairly competent level, including myself, these are the only two items that may make a noticeable difference unless you're chasing hundredths of a second, which I'm not.

    Good sights make a difference (for me anyway) at 15+ yards, while a good red dot makes all that a moot point.

  3. #3
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    Initial thoughts:

    1. If your issue pistol is an M!7 (Sig) or a Glock (M)17, that is the pistol you should be spending your time/talent/treasure on re getting better.

    2. You have to be certain that you have any vision issues being properly addressed.

    3. I was once at a class where a guy kept crowing about his custom deathray brand pistol which could hold 2 inches at 25 yrds all day long. At some point after hearing that phrase multiple times, somebody said, SO WHAT, YOU CAN'T."

    If you can hold, 90% + of your rounds fired on an 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 25 yards, then triggers, different non RDS sights and/or barrels may give you some benefit. Unless and until that is true, particularly in striker fired platforms, it is a software problem looking for a hardware solution.

    Some might even say the accuracy standard should be the black of a B8 before one should start fitting barrels, swapping triggers etc.

    IMHO/YMMV
    I am not your attorney. I am not giving legal advice. Any and all opinions expressed are personal and my own and are not those of any employer-past, present or future.

  4. #4
    I was discussing basically this earlier today, with a lead red dot instructor for a major Phoenix area department. Over and over, he has seen LE shooters move to a Sig X5 Legion with a dot, and make major performance gains. A Glock takes more skill for attaining a comparable level of performance. Of course, the Glock has many other virtues.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #5
    Gucci gear, Walmart skill Darth_Uno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post
    Initial thoughts:

    1. If your issue pistol is an M!7 (Sig) or a Glock (M)17, that is the pistol you should be spending your time/talent/treasure on re getting better.

    2. You have to be certain that you have any vision issues being properly addressed.

    3. I was once at a class where a guy kept crowing about his custom deathray brand pistol which could hold 2 inches at 25 yrds all day long. At some point after hearing that phrase multiple times, somebody said, SO WHAT, YOU CAN'T."

    If you can hold, 90% + of your rounds fired on an 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 25 yards, then triggers, different non RDS sights and/or barrels may give you some benefit. Unless and until that is true, particularly in striker fired platforms, it is a software problem looking for a hardware solution.

    Some might even say the accuracy standard should be the black of a B8 before one should start fitting barrels, swapping triggers etc.

    IMHO/YMMV
    The tipping point is really when you are so advanced that the mechanics of the weapon are holding you back. 99% of shooters will never reach that point.

    For point #3, yes. You don't want to be the guy with the best gear and worst performance. I've found it best to say "gee whiz fellas, I just bought this gun from my buddy yesterday. He said it's pretty good. I never fired a gun in my life before today."

  6. #6
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    Upgrades

    @Yute

    You might be interested in @DMF13 opinion on this subject since he’s in a similar situation that he can’t upgrade his service weapon.

    There are some “upgrades” that mask bad habits or bad techniques.

    I wouldn’t pursue those because they make you look better, but they don’t make you better. Like lighter triggers and magwells.

    There are some “upgrades” that help you improve your habits.

    Red dot sights, even for iron shooters to get dry fire feedback. A stiff belt and a quality holster for reproducibility.

    Since they help you help yourself get better, I’d recommend them even to the most novice of shooters.

  7. #7
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    Thank you all for your helpful thoughts! A lot to ponder!

    Interestingly the course I was in definitely made the most of the B8 at 25 yards. A good standard to really test the fundamentals because distance amplifies errors.

  8. #8
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yute View Post
    no amount of self adjustments to grip/stance/sighting seemed to have any notable improvement.

    This all came to a head this month when I took an advanced pistol course with a dozen or so LEOs. I was completely outclassed, particularly at speed and distance. It was a humbling experience and extremely valuable; I realized that in order to progress, I have have to relearn all my shooting fundamentals from the ground up.
    Perhaps you should upgrade your training/instruction. You need educated eyes critiquing what you are doing. The "advanced pistol course" gave you perspective on where your abilities stack up against others. Fundamentals are priority #1!

    You do not want to repeat the same problem. This is where good instruction can really help. Additionally some research and then understanding on your part into what it takes to fire an accurate shot at distance should have positive effect. I like to tell people to look to Bullseye shooting. https://www.bullseyepistol.com/
    The ability to deliver an accurate shot at distance is just one aspect of shooting but it is the rock that all fundamentals are built upon.

    Hint: If you can't explain to another shooter the difference between angular and parallel deviation and how they relate to distance then any accurate shots you send are dumb luck.

  9. #9
    Member DMF13's Avatar
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    As others have said, fundamentals of trigger control, gun handling, and visual processing, are way more important than the gun itself.
    Assuming the gun is a quality gun that fits you reasonably well, and you'd have a hard time convincing me a M17/P320 doesn't meet that criteria.

    You could spend money on gear for a very tiny, almost imperceptible, improvement in performance, but spending time on training to improve fundamentals will provide a huge, and very noticeable, improvement in performance. Especially, because you, like me, aren't likely to realize any real benefit from the gear improvement, until we've put time into the improving the fundamentals.

    As JCN said, I'm in the same boat as you. I want to make a huge leap in performance, but I'm limited to carrying my issued Glock 19, and the only mods allowed are adding a grip plug (not a magwell), swapping out sights to a different set of "irons," and adding a rubber grip sleeve, or grip tape. No trigger jobs/parts, no magwells, no MRDs, etc. Full disclosure I did add a C&H PWS polymer grip plug to my Glock.

    I agree with vcdgrips, that you, and I, should be concentrating on getting max performance out of what we carry.

    That said, I'm saving up for a MRDS and Glock 19 MOS. A fair question is, "why, when I can't carry that type of gun," but I've said I'm concentrating on what I carry. JCN convinced me, despite some initial skepticism on my part, that training with a red dot on a pistol can improve performance with irons. JCN loaned me a Glock slide with a MRDS, and I've been splitting my dry fire between the red dot and irons, for the past 8 weeks. While the gains I've made are mostly due to the training plan JCN has us on, the red dot work has helped a great deal too. So, while I can't carry a gun with a MRDS right now, working with it does translate into gains with what I carry, and I've seen enough value in it that I will spend the money to continue training that way.

    TLDR: "It's the shooter, not the gun, that matters."
    _______________
    "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here I am. Send me." - Isaiah 6:8

  10. #10
    Member DMF13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth_Uno View Post
    It took me a long time and a lot of money to figure out that fundamentals will beat cool gear every day of the week and twice on Sunday (especially if there's a match that Sunday).
    So funny, and so true.
    _______________
    "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here I am. Send me." - Isaiah 6:8

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