ATF Raids Larry Vickers? Anyone know anything about this?

[Ed L]

Assuming he even does time, he's probably going to a minimum security facility (think Gordon Liddy, Scooter Libby, Martha Stewart). Inmates there have a strong incentive to behave, or they will end up in medium or maximum security facilities with violent criminals. Despite the BS Piper Chapman, and Gordon Liddy, have sold to people, minimum security prisons, while unpleasant, are not like being in medium or maximum security facilities.

Gordon Liddy did not go into a minimum security prison.

[ECS686]

Won't his reputation as an informant in prison put him at substantial risk inside?

That is normally more of an issue with criminal gang members (Bloods, Crips BGD VL etc) not so much a few dudes that got caught up in Something.

In either case BOP has what they call drop out yards. drop out yards are for those cases where they “drop out” of real gangs, are a 5K1 aka cooperation with Government testified against folks (see above) Former LE or as of late some sex offenders and since around 2014 BOP has had an explosion of “transgender” inmates. (In 2000 when I started BOP the only sex offender BOP had far and wide were Native Americans that had a charge from the Rez and maybe an occasional military installation crime then around 2015 they needed a 3rd USP high for that because the internet crimes prosecutions were catching up as far as inmates rated points wise as high security. Before those types were always at the low mark at least as BOP was concerned)

BOP has a point system they look at about everything (higher the points the higher level institution) this includes length of sentence, was violence involved, types of crime, criminal or security threat group affiliation yada yada to place folks. They try to place folks within 500 miles of their residence. I would
Presume he would go to FCC Butler as they have an FMC which houses Al security levels and a low FCI as well as a camp. I’d say Butner because of 1 it’s a medical complex and 2 obviously well within the 500 miles.

My actual prediction is if he sees any time behind a fence or at a camp it will be 18 months or less. But we we’ll see. It really is all over in these type cases. I have seen some get hammered and others a couple
Months and supervised release.

[billt460]

I have not read through all 15 pages of this. However it has been posted pretty much everywhere, that Vickers has pleaded GUILTY to these charges, in some type of plea agreement. According to maximum sentencing, he could be looking at 25 years. I doubt he'll get that. It has been said, (and I agree), that the ATF likes to make examples out of cases like this. And in many cases, they do.

With that said, one can't help but question Vickers motives for doing something this foolish and stupid. How could a man with such an impeccable service record, and degree of firearms knowledge and talent, (both with fully automatic weapons, and the laws that govern them), attach himself to something this foolish and criminal? Not to mention being involved with so many other people in this criminal act. As with most crimes, the more people who are involved, the greater the risk of getting caught.

Machine guns are some of the most tightly regulated weapons a citizen can own. How could he think he could get away with something like this? Full well knowing the penalty if caught. The risk to reward factor simply isn't there. It's all but certain that he'll not only get prison time, but he will most certainly forever lose his right to ever legally own a firearm of any type ever again. Very sad.

[mmc45414]

How could a man with such an impeccable service record, and degree of firearms knowledge and talent, (both with fully automatic weapons, and the laws that govern them), attach himself to something this foolish and criminal?

Not sure how all of the timing might be with his diagnosis and treatment, but maybe he thought he was going to croak before he would get caught. Don't know if he has family to try and provide for in his potential absence, maybe a Walter White non-fiction scenario.

[RevolverRob]

If the property was forfeited to the government, and it is firearms or ammunition it cannot be legally transferred out of government possession. The firearms would be destoyed (most common
), or converted to official use (very rare).

If the defendant is is legally prohibited from possessing the firearms or ammunition (by virtue of their felony conviction), and the evidence is not forfeited to the government, and was legally possessed by the defendant prior to seizure/conviction, the defendant is usually given a chance to transfer the property to someone who is not prohibited from legally possessing the firearms/evidence. (there is caselaw on this, but I can't find the citation right now.)

I was actually joking with my post. BUT that said, I actually do appreciate the insight from folks and clarity on the matter. If a joke is going to fall flat, folks should at least learn something!

I have not read through all 15 pages of this. However it has been posted pretty much everywhere, that Vickers has pleaded GUILTY to these charges, in some type of plea agreement. According to maximum sentencing, he could be looking at 25 years. I doubt he'll get that. It has been said, (and I agree), that the ATF likes to make examples out of cases like this. And in many cases, they do.

I too doubt he will serve the maximum or anywhere near it. I would suspect like many his sentence will be greatly reduced in part for his cooperation.

I think it is important for folks to remember: The ATF can pursue investigations, but it is the DOJ that brings charges, prosecutes cases, and the court that determines guilt and punishment. I say this, because a lot of folks (myself included) say, "The ATF makes examples out of people." - The ATF can be over/under zealous in its investigations, but zealousness in final judgement and sentencing is out of their hands. The number of factors that can mitigate or instigate a more lenient or harsh judgement and penalty is large and the ATF (nor any Alphabet Agency) cannot control them all.

In this case LAV was part of a larger criminal conspiracy. The investigations of that conspiracy included ATF, FBI, IRS, and DHS. When all of those agencies are involved, you have a bad situation before the indictments hit.

I guess I have to side with our Fed LE on this - nothing about this case seems "example making" or "biased". In this case you have a lot of factors going on including some real and genuine problems involving knowingly violating sanctions laws.

Note: This is not a comment at you specifically. I am not suggesting you are saying the ATF was over zealous nor are you attempting to deflect. This is merely general commentary and discussion to add.

[JohnO]

Given the sentences some have received for Jan. 6 related BS and the current anti-gun sentiment in the government I would not want to be in LAV's shoes. Yes I understand there is no correlation between the two other than Sending a Message.

[DMF13]

Gordon Liddy did not go into a minimum security prison.

Despite what he would like people to believe he did his time in minimum security. He was a white collar criminal, with no history of violence. He did most of his time at FCI Danbury, the same place Stewart, Chapman, and Libby, did their time. Minimum security.

Liddy liked to sell the idea he was a tough guy and spy, but it was BS. He was mediocre government lawyer, and delusional hack, who couldn't even pull off the minor robbery he participated in.

[HCM]

I have not read through all 15 pages of this. However it has been posted pretty much everywhere, that Vickers has pleaded GUILTY to these charges, in some type of plea agreement. According to maximum sentencing, he could be looking at 25 years. I doubt he'll get that. It has been said, (and I agree), that the ATF likes to make examples out of cases like this. And in many cases, they do.

With that said, one can't help but question Vickers motives for doing something this foolish and stupid. How could a man with such an impeccable service record, and degree of firearms knowledge and talent, (both with fully automatic weapons, and the laws that govern them), attach himself to something this foolish and criminal? Not to mention being involved with so many other people in this criminal act. As with most crimes, the more people who are involved, the greater the risk of getting caught.

Machine guns are some of the most tightly regulated weapons a citizen can own. How could he think he could get away with something like this? Full well knowing the penalty if caught. The risk to reward factor simply isn't there. It's all but certain that he'll not only get prison time, but he will most certainly forever lose his right to ever legally own a firearm of any type ever again. Very sad.

You should really read the thread, or at least the full statement of facts from LAV’s plea agreement which is also linked in the thread.

We’re all gun people so we’re all focused on LAV (gun celebrity) and ATF ( gun boogeyman).

The TLDR version is:

The core of this case is violation of sanctions against a Russian Arms manufacturer. Russia being a hostile foreign power this is a national security/ counter proliferation case first, NFA case second. LAV was not one of the original targets of the case and it appears the case originated with DHS Office of Inspector General (OIG) and FBI Counter Intelligence due to the Russia angle and one of the original targets having a sensitive position within DHS. ATF was brought in later.

In a straight ATF case I would expect LAV’s service record would help mitigate his sentence.

However, as @vcdgrips pointed out, given the Russia /sanctions aspect it may work against him since he “should have known better.” That may be part of his motivation to take a plea and cooperate.

I’m hoping LAV gets minimal or no time as I believe for him, being a prohibited person will be more significant punishment than any BOP time.

[TheRoland]

With that said, one can't help but question Vickers motives for doing something this foolish and stupid. How could a man with such an impeccable service record, and degree of firearms knowledge and talent, (both with fully automatic weapons, and the laws that govern them), attach himself to something this foolish and criminal? Not to mention being involved with so many other people in this criminal act. As with most crimes, the more people who are involved, the greater the risk of getting caught.

I really don't get it either. In 2012 or 2013, it might not have been obvious that Russia was still "the" enemy, but 2014 was Russia's invasion of Crimea and a brand new round of sanctions.

[HCM]

I was actually joking with my post. BUT that said, I actually do appreciate the insight from folks and clarity on the matter. If a joke is going to fall flat, folks should at least learn something!



I too doubt he will serve the maximum or anywhere near it. I would suspect like many his sentence will be greatly reduced in part for his cooperation.

I think it is important for folks to remember: The ATF can pursue investigations, but it is the DOJ that brings charges, prosecutes cases, and the court that determines guilt and punishment. I say this, because a lot of folks (myself included) say, "The ATF makes examples out of people." - The ATF can be over/under zealous in its investigations, but zealousness in final judgement and sentencing is out of their hands. The number of factors that can mitigate or instigate a more lenient or harsh judgement and penalty is large and the ATF (nor any Alphabet Agency) cannot control them all.

In this case LAV was part of a larger criminal conspiracy. The investigations of that conspiracy included ATF, FBI, IRS, and DHS. When all of those agencies are involved, you have a bad situation before the indictments hit.

I guess I have to side with our Fed LE on this - nothing about this case seems "example making" or "biased". In this case you have a lot of factors going on including some real and genuine problems involving knowingly violating sanctions laws.

Note: This is not a comment at you specifically. I am not suggesting you are saying the ATF was over zealous nor are you attempting to deflect. This is merely general commentary and discussion to add.

Excellent point re: DOJ. Any LE agency local, state or federal can only present the facts to prosecutors. Prosecutors then gatekeeper if charges are brought and what charges are brought. Without getting too far off topic this “choke point” is why the whole “Soros DA” strategy is effective.