Bring It Back!

[Outpost75]

Then again...Here is a scandium frame that hasn't held up quite as well as S&W's advertising would have you believe:

Attachment 78054

As illistrated this was a 325 PD, 4". When contacted S&W said, since I wasn't the original owner, they might or might not fix it...and if they did it was gonna cost.

Scandium may not be all it's cracked up to be after all.

Dave

That one isn't as bad as others I've seen. A 340PD firing. .38 PlusP blew off chunk over barrel threads and hit rangemaster during annual quals. Also seen a .44 Night Guarx KaBoom with factory loads. When I get back to desktop I'll post photos.

[Wheeler]

Do a web search on "model 12 frame crack" and you'll see what all the fuss is about. It's not the cylinders. The frames crack through the barrel threads below the forcing cone.

Scandium is the answer.

I'm mixed on the Ti cylinders. Weight reduction is nice, but then you get a big risk factor for durability. Wrong ammo will flame cut it, and you don't want to scrape it, so leading could be a real issue, too.

I ran a 4” 12-2 through 20 IDPA matches, (roughly two seasons,) using a +P equivalent load with no issues. Before that I would occasionally shoot a 12-2 2” with the same load. Neither showed any sign of frame stress. I had more concerns of the steel clockwork wearing out the aluminum frame due to the relatively high volume of use than I did if the frame cracking. I’m advocating the use of the newer aluminum frames using modern metallurgy, not the use of aluminum from 50-60 years ago nor the use of an ultralight, ultra expensive metal in the quest for a super light gun. Revolvers need a certain amount of weight and mass to function properly during the recoil process. They don’t have springs and reciprocating parts to mitigate recoil and it’s affects on the frame.

I do realize my two anecdotes do not data make. YMMV.

[Duces Tecum]

A +P rated Model 12 with the lock-up improvements seen on the 66-8 would probably be the revolver version of a Glock 19. Preferably DAO with good sights. I just wonder if the market is there. Most of the people carrying revolvers these days are carrying J Frames or Ruger LCRs or they’re carrying big bore revolvers for animal defense while hunting.

Senior citizens for whom the pistol's manual of arms has become problematic?

[OlongJohnson]

In a bunch of the discussion I found over on the blue forum, S&W claimed responsibility for the crack when people returned frames to them. Said the barrel was over tightened at installation. Which would be classic S&W crappy process control, I guess. That's logical, as the ramp angle of the threads generates hoop stress in the outer pair (the frame) of the mating threads when it's tightened.

There are also many anecdotes of the opposite problem, when people have their TRR8/M&P R8 barrels loosen, sometimes repeatedly. Sure would be nice if S&W would just sell the tool for those nuts and publish a torque spec.

[Outpost75]

S&W Scandium 340PD .357 FAILURE



During qual 5 rds of 38 +P 135 gr HP Gold Dot SB. Chunk that came off hit the instructor running the course (no injury). Low round count, just carried a lot in an ankle rig. It continued to run after the chunk came off (round 2 or 3 of 5) as the shooter did not notice it.
Likely cause is stress corrosion cracking initiated by notch sensitivity. Failure crack probably originated from a tool mark left over from broaching the cylinder recess in the frame. S&W would be well advised to increase the filet radius as well as improving surface finish in the filet and/or shot peening. Looking at the brown stain adjacent fracture looks familiar, this appears to have been working a while and picked this time to let go.

Cop armorer friend in SoCal had to send 2 or 3 standard aluminum J frames (642/442) back to S&W that cracked the frame at 6 O’Clock below the forcing cone. S&W said that happens sometimes from hoop stress transferred through the aluminum when the machine screws on the barrel or when they thread the frame for the barrel. They replaced the entire gun each time.



The so-called S&W "lifetime warranty" has limitations. Same retired LE armorer bought himself a retirement-gift all steel 640 and the “hammer stud” broke off flush with the frame with a few hundred rounds on board. From the gitgo dry firing it did not feel quite right, but was still working as the side plate kind of holds the stud (pin) in place...When he popped off the side plate he saw the internal parts slightly shifted...well that’s not normal. My take is that the manufacturing side of the house needed to put more production across its MIM line to more quickly realize return on investment for the bean counters upstairs. So they decided to go with that process for such a simple part. A Swiss screw machine can produce parts of that shape from wrought material quicker and cheaper. Those components can also be heat treated as required whereas MIM components not so much.

For a number of reasons I won’t get into S&W needed to replace the frame (they can’t repair aluminum frames so those are replaced when this happens) they sent him a bill for $145 even though they said it had nothing to do with anything he had done. I had to get the local S&W LE rep involved and even he could not explain why this fell outside the normal “lifetime” warranty. Somehow he eventually made the bill go away. Those without a badge or retired credential probably won't be as lucky.



A broken hammer stud is becoming more common with the shift to MIM. Especially on the N frames. Machinist buddy fixes a lot of them because guys don’t want to wait 30-60 days for S&W “service”. As for screwing on barrels, they sure torque'em on tight. Forcing cone constriction has been a problem with the late production guns I’ve inspected. It's usually $100 gunsmith fix to set back and refit, but shouldn’t be necessary if they fitted correctly just cut a UNF-Class 2A thread, not a 3A, then just screw it in correctly and pin it, Like they did in the old days. One of many reasons I prefer the older revolvers. That stud as now manufactured is now a MIM part press fit into a slightly raised collar instead of being screwed into the frame. The repair is to drill it out and then tap thread the frame and install a new stud the old fashioned way.

Reinforces my gut instinct that "an old gun that works is worth more than a new gun that doesn't."

Some other Scandium failures:

[WobblyPossum]

Senior citizens for whom the pistol's manual of arms has become problematic?

If hand strength or arthritis issues are substantial enough that someone can’t use a semi auto, would you recommend an airweight revolver over a steel framed one for them?

[Outpost75]

If hand strength or arthritis issues are substantial enough that someone can’t use a semi auto, would you recommend an airweight revolver over a steel framed one for them?

A standard-sized K-frame Airweight Model 12 is just about ideal in that application.

[Duces Tecum]

If hand strength or arthritis issues are substantial enough that someone can’t use a semi auto, would you recommend an airweight revolver over a steel framed one for them?

I would recommend a revolver over a pistol.

I would have them understand that in practice sessions the recoil of an airweight revolver can be mitigated by their choice of ammunition.

I would recommend a light weight revolver that can be carried more comfortably by an older person over a steel framed one that is more likely to be left home, on the shelf next to the evening pills.


Cordially,
Duces

[03RN]

Wow, I've always wanted a nightguard but now I don't know.

[WobblyPossum]

A standard-sized K-frame Airweight Model 12 is just about ideal in that application.

I would recommend a revolver over a pistol.

I would have them understand that in practice sessions the recoil of an airweight revolver can be mitigated by their choice of ammunition.

I would recommend a light weight revolver that can be carried more comfortably by an older person over a steel framed one that is more likely to be left home, on the shelf next to the evening pills.


Cordially,
Duces

From the perspective of people who would regularly carry a lighter weight airweight gun that wouldn’t regularly carry a similarly configured steel frame gun, I can understand that. I was looking at it from the thought process of weak hands/arthritis would make actually training with the gun a miserable experience and 99% of gun owners would have just that one carry gun instead of an airweight for carry and a steel framed gun to train with. If you’re only going to have the one, the steel framed one would probably get shot more in practice.