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Thread: Particular Things for Young Women MUC'ing?

  1. #1
    Tactical Nobody Guerrero's Avatar
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    Particular Things for Young Women MUC'ing?

    Older Offspring has been at college for almost a month, and she had an... encounter the other day, which kind of rattled her. After speaking to her, it seems (long story short) that the guy was just a clod who was inept with women and come on a little too strong that just got a little creepy for my daughter, especially since he was much bigger than her, and nothing ended up happening. I'm trying not to go all over-protective dad and get @SouthNarc on the phone for a private lesson for her. I was able to get her settled down, so she feels better now. Some specific advice I gave her:

    1) Trust your "spider sense": if something feels "creepy," take action. Don't ever ignore the spider sense.

    2) Work on your "playlist." Rehearse ahead of time things to say, everything variations on "I acknowledge what you said, but no."
    "That's sweet/I'm flattered, but I'm good." (Nicest)
    "Thank you, but I'm good."
    "No, I'm good."
    "No. If I need something, I'll call Public Safety."
    Etc.

    3) Once she has her playlist down, start watching for other things: does the guy still keep trying to get closer, does he try to give you a drink, does he have a buddy trying to move around to the side/flank, etc.

    A couple other things I keep thinking about:
    1) Older Offspring is on the Autism spectrum; high-functioning, but still. She's also a very young freshman. In addition, she's never had a guy come on to her before, even a well-intentioned one. I told her that this will happen again. She's cute, she's funny, and guys will express interest, with varying degrees of smoothness. Be prepared for it.

    2) I don't remember which trainer (@John Murphy maybe?), said that, when things start to go south, women need to get more violent much more quickly then men. All of a sudden, I'm not sure I've prepared my daughter for the "what if words don't work" scenario.

    Anything else I can do without going ballistic (figuratively and literally)? I'm thinking some pepper spray with some training might be the next appropriate step.
    "The victor is not victorious if the vanquished does not consider himself so."
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  2. #2
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    What you’ve done sounds like a good start. Classes with Craig or Cecil would not be off my list.

    Our older offspring (I call mine Thing 1) is also a cute, funny, high-functioning Autism Spectrum female, and *every guy* that ever came on to her freaked her out. Even sweet guy friends she’d known for years who decided they liked her and wanted to date her at various points in her last year and a half of high school. She never accepted a date in college - carried a fresh can of pepper spray every year, a refresher of “get loud, vulgar, and violent” as needed, and got through with no assaults.

    Her last year of college, she decided that she’s gay, and that’s why the guys were freaking her out.

    Awkward, socially underdeveloped guys happened around my wife a lot in college, too. I wonder sometimes if I was one and she just took pity on me.

  3. #3
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    My daughter attends school in NYC

    SHe has found the placement of ear buds with no vol in her ears and the use of sunglasses effective in MUC. Redundant visual "cues" that "block" the approach of some folks.
    I am not your attorney. I am not giving legal advice. Any and all opinions expressed are personal and my own and are not those of any employer-past, present or future.

  4. #4
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    @Guerrero, congrats on raising your daughter to adulthood! Your list is good, but I and (especially) my wife have also coached our daughters how to be NOT nice. We've pointed out that anyone who doesn't understand that hassling a young woman in certain ways is creepy, inappropriate, and/or scary does not need to be treated with kindness or respect. Sometimes pretending to be nice or respectful can be the best strategy, but often it's not.

    Add this to your list:

    LOUD VOICE with phone and pepper spray in hands: "Stay away from me! I just called 911! I will defend myself!"

    Press 911 button on phone, run toward safety if possible. Otherwise: if the creep does not stop and leave, spray the fucker. We have emphasized how proud we would be of our girls if they did this to someone. Even if the guy turned out to be relatively harmless.
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  5. #5
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    This is just my take but one thing I find with women is that giving them a non-confrontational, non-rejective verbal "out" early in the playlist seems to be important.

    I like to give them a response like fast delivery of "I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm really late for class/a meeting/work/whatever" because it gives them an automatic excuse to keep moving without automatically registering as rejection, which seems to seriously trigger the kind of guys who might turn into a problem.

    Obviously, pure psychos will be completely unfazed because they're coming to get you, regardless. And I don't think every dude in Sperrys is another Brock Turner (although being named Brock is a huge red flag) and that campuses are all hotbeds of "rape culture." But if I had to bet on risks to young women on campus that aren't specifically in really dangerous areas, I would GUESS that asshole guys about four to six drinks in who have issues with women and have been rejected a bunch are the sort of fence-sitters you could potentially avoid by good MUC skills.

    So my thinking is basically this: you exploit their mental vulnerability, which is prejudice. Prejudice is a processing weakness in evaluating a single event; you're bringing information to the table that isn't in the equation in front of you and are more likely to misjudge unique events as a result. Consequently, since we want this young woman to have a non-standard response to threatening behaviour, misdirection is going to be a really handy tool. A woman who breathlessly says "I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm late" fits their worldview and explains why that woman keeps right on moving past them; she's so stressed by her own situation she didn't have time to register how awesome or desirable or worthwhile they are. It's not rejection, it's just confusion.

    And since guys like that are, I think, made furious by rejection, it's easier to exploit their existing circuitry to avoid that trigger than to immediately risk pulling the pin by being assertive. You need to follow up with increasing confidence if they keep coming, of course - "Hey, I said I'm late, I don't have time for this now." "Leave me alone, I have to be some where RIGHT NOW." "BTFU!" But that initial misdirection filter of apology/excuse is something I believe in for encounters that could go either way, depending on who flips what switches.

    This is also often psychologically easier for women to step into - I'm not qualified to say whether that's because we train girls to be polite or because estrogen makes you nurturing. Not my problem. But studies are pretty clear about women's tendency to apologize and their comfort level with direct confrontation in lots of contexts. So if the roll begins with something that is indirect and non-confrontational, and progresses through an increase in aggression on a track that follows naturally from the concept of having to be somewhere else...I think that's just an easier path to head down for a lot of young women.


    Anyway that's part of the coaching I give to women that ask me.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Maple Syrup Actual View Post
    This is just my take but one thing I find with women is that giving them a non-confrontational, non-rejective verbal "out" early in the playlist seems to be important.
    <snip>
    This is also often psychologically easier for women to step into - I'm not qualified to say whether that's because we train girls to be polite or because estrogen makes you nurturing. Not my problem. But studies are pretty clear about women's tendency to apologize and their comfort level with direct confrontation in lots of contexts. So if the roll begins with something that is indirect and non-confrontational, and progresses through an increase in aggression on a track that follows naturally from the concept of having to be somewhere else...I think that's just an easier path to head down for a lot of young women.
    Yup. Many post-assault stories include “I didn’t want to be rude” or “I didn’t want to cause a scene”. It’s great to help women be more assertive, but if she’s in the habit of being polite it’s good to have tools that work with that.
    Something like: quick glance at phone(or across the room at friend), “Oh no! I’m late gotta go bye” and skedaddle. If dude tries to stop them it’s a clear sign that he’s not just annoying and it is clearly appropriate to escalate.

    If she’s comfortable being more assertive, good. Ideally one has a range of responses that one can select as needed.

    There’s NO obligation to be nice to someone who seems sketchy, creepy, or rude. It can be a useful option.

  7. #7
    I heartily recommend that everyone, especially young women and men, read the The Gift of Fear by Gavin deBecker.

    “Trust that which causes alarm, because when it comes to danger, intuition is always right in at least two ways:

    1) it is always in response to something; and

    2) it always has your best interest at heart”
    - Gavin de Becker


    "It is far better to respond to a hunch/feeling/intuition and discover you were mistaken than to ignore or deny it and discover you were very wrong.' – Tony Blauer

    The best outcome is to avoid dangerous situations. I pretty much had to force my daughters to read the Gift of Fear and I made them set through my Situational Awareness powerpoint.

    We focused quite a bit on this picture, for three reasons:

    Name:  When Then.JPG
Views: 632
Size:  53.9 KB

    1) Talking about 'commentary walking' to build SA;
    2) Recognizing hazardous areas and 'when thenning' a response if the area could not be avoided;
    3) As others mentioned, developing a script.

    They figured out that the best option would be to go something like 'dang, I forgot my keys' and turn around and return to an area with other folks. You also want to focus on not being afraid to run - in other words act on your intuition.

    Also, encourage your daughter to carry a substantial pen in her hand when walking about campus. Instruct her on how to use it and where - on the body - to focus her strikes.

    Also, the biggest mistake that I feel folks make when using OC is not delivering enough on target. Granted, your daughter, unlike a police officer, should be using the OC to disengage, but if possible a good tow to three second impact on target - face, eyes, mouth - is the goal. It doesn't work if it doesn't get in the eyes or in the respiratory tract.

    A lot of good advice in this thread, good luck.
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  8. #8
    What’s MUC?

    What’s BTFU?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    What’s MUC?

    What’s BTFU?
    Managing Unknown Contacts - dealing with people we don’t know who get in our space without our permission.

    BTFU - Back The F*** Up! - a version of “get loud, get vulgar, prepare to get violent as needed.”

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    What’s MUC?

    What’s BTFU?
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelist View Post
    Managing Unknown Contacts - dealing with people we don’t know who get in our space without our permission.

    BTFU - Back The F*** Up! - a version of “get loud, get vulgar, prepare to get violent as needed.”
    Because, you know, acronyms are operator level cool.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

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