Keyholing with Gallant bullets

[Spartan1980]

Sorry Im the worst at expressing in words. Not as in coming apart as in pieces but maybe delaminating would be a better description. Im not that familiar with keyholing I know Ive seen it but not more than a very few times. Those holes just look odd to my untrained eye. Whatever it is I hope we find out if there is an explanation.

Agreed. They do look like they are keyholing. I suppose they could have a coating adhesion problem also. Shedding the coating while inside the barrel would probably cause leading which will do exactly this, but coated bullets generally are a lot better than plated in my experience in this regard. Maybe plated are better but I quit using them a long time ago. They used to be so thinly plated that shaving it off while loading was very easy to do. Not so with coated, it's still possible but they are a lot better.

O/P do a couple of things:

1) Pull a couple of random bullets from your loads. The kinetic hammers are fine for this. Then check the coating integrity and also check the diameter of the bullets you pull to see if they have been squeezed down by the case or loading process. I've seen that happen with cheap plated as the base metal is dead soft lead and it's very easy to deform.

2) Check to see if the coating will peel, crack or flake from those pulled bullets by smashing them pretty good with a hammer. It shouldn't.

[dmiculek]

Check your crimp. Pull a bullet and measure it to see if your sizing your bullet during the crimping process. Any chance your using a LEE factory crimp die?

[NuJudge]

If your bullets are too small, they may keyhole. If your bullets are too small, you will probably have significant Leading in your bore, with the gases blowing by the bullet stripping Lead off the bullet, and depositing it in the bore. A non-jacketed bullet can be too small before it is loaded, or be sized to too small during loading. If my understanding is correct, your bullets are cast, and then coated.

I like Beretta and Walther 9mm pistols. My measurements are that their barrel groove diameters are about .3575". You need a micrometer to measure, not a caliper. One of the ways to prevent bullet set-back on feeding is to have lots of neck tension holding the bullet in place. Lee even makes a "U Die", which leaves both the ID and OD of the case smaller. If your bullet is soft, it probably will be swaged down some. The bullets I cast, I cast big and really hard, to prevent this.

One can set up a die system of sizer & expander, which leaves the case ID about the diameter of the bullet, down to where the base of the bullet rests, then is smaller below that. I am experimenting with such a system, using it for hollow based swaged wadcutters in .32 S&W Long. These bulets are as soft as can be. Results so far have been excellent. No Leading.

[GyroF-16]

Check your crimp. Pull a bullet and measure it to see if your sizing your bullet during the crimping process. Any chance your using a LEE factory crimp die?

Yes, I am using the Lee factory crimp die. It’s set the same as the last 10,000 rounds I’ve loaded using Gallant bullets.
But if this lot of bullets is softer, or has coating that’s coming off, maybe the crimp is making the diameter smaller than all the previous loads.

I’ll plan to do as suggested and measure some pulled bullets from both this lot and the few remaining from the last lot.
I’ll also try whacking some with a hammer and report the results.

Thanks to all for the ideas!

[GyroF-16]

I seriously doubt they are coming apart in flight at 900 fps. You might check the hardness though. If they got a soft batch of metal it may not be gripping the rifling enough to stabilize. Gripping the rifling seems to be the issue whatever the cause since your gun has shot heavies in the past. Is your barrel leaded? When I've seen keyholing or maybe just on the verge of keyholing the accuracy sucked. How do they group? My bet is worsee than before.

I suppose the barrel could be leaded - almost all of the 15,000 rds fired through it were coated lead.
When I last slow fired for pure accuracy a few months ago, the groups were slightly larger, but not disturbingly so. I just thought that I was out of practice.

What’s the best way to determine leading?
And best method for removing it?

[Sal Picante]

I suppose the barrel could be leaded - almost all of the 15,000 rds fired through it were coated lead.
When I last slow fired for pure accuracy a few months ago, the groups were slightly larger, but not disturbingly so. I just thought that I was out of practice.

What’s the best way to determine leading?
And best method for removing it?

Take the gun apart like you're going to clean it. Look at the muzzle end of the barrel. If the rifling looks silver and you can use a pin to dislodge some of the "residue" in one of the grooves, your barrel is probably leaded.

Beretta's generally like .357 size coated projectiles.
That said, .356 do seem to work. Check that your crimp, seating and powder drop have consistent. All of those can have an effect on keyholing.

[GyroF-16]

Take the gun apart like you're going to clean it. Look at the muzzle end of the barrel. If the rifling looks silver and you can use a pin to dislodge some of the "residue" in one of the grooves, your barrel is probably leaded.

Beretta's generally like .357 size coated projectiles.
That said, .356 do seem to work. Check that your crimp, seating and powder drop have consistent. All of those can have an effect on keyholing.

Thanks, Les.

Here’s my situation:
I tried Gallant .356 and .357 bullets back to back some time ago. In my gun (LTT Elite), with 6, 10 rd groups at 25 yds, alternating between.356 and .357 (three groups with each bullet size), I found that the .356 bullets grouped slightly better. I’ve therefor used .356 bullets for the last 12,000 rds.

The bore of the stainless barrel of the LTT Elite pretty much always looks sliver/grey. But I’ll see if there’s anything that can be scraped out with a dental pick or the like.

The lot of 100 rds where 20% of the bullets keyholed was a pretty proven load.
3.5 gr of HP-38 under a 147 gr Gallant RNFP with COAL of 1.08 generating about 900-920 ft/s.

With this particular lot, I’d switched from Federal brass to Winchester, and had to adjust the bullet seating depth, as the initial setting was giving a COAL of 1.095. So I adjusted the bullet seating die to seat the bullet deeper (than I’d needed to with Fed brass to get the same COAL). This was the only adjustment made since loading several thousand rounds of the same recipe using Fed brass- and not having any keyholing in all of those rounds.

I’m going to check the LTT Elite’s bore for leading, but may also take the 92FS that my son has been using to the range the next time.
If I get keyholing from both guns, I can rule out a barrel issue and concentrate on the cartridge, and especially the bullet.

[GyroF-16]

Agreed. They do look like they are keyholing. I suppose they could have a coating adhesion problem also. Shedding the coating while inside the barrel would probably cause leading which will do exactly this, but coated bullets generally are a lot better than plated in my experience in this regard. Maybe plated are better but I quit using them a long time ago. They used to be so thinly plated that shaving it off while loading was very easy to do. Not so with coated, it's still possible but they are a lot better.

O/P do a couple of things:

1) Pull a couple of random bullets from your loads. The kinetic hammers are fine for this. Then check the coating integrity and also check the diameter of the bullets you pull to see if they have been squeezed down by the case or loading process. I've seen that happen with cheap plated as the base metal is dead soft lead and it's very easy to deform.

2) Check to see if the coating will peel, crack or flake from those pulled bullets by smashing them pretty good with a hammer. It shouldn't.

Ok - I pulled 3 of the loaded bullets from the new lot. They have a BARELY measurable compressed diameter.
To elaborate: my digital calipers measure to .001, and then have a smaller “5” that comes on to indicate (I’d guess) 5/10,000 of an inch. But that 4th decimal digit “5” is either on or off, so doesn’t give much granularity.
When I measured 20 bullets in this lot that have not been loaded, they all measure .3565
When I measured the three bullets I pulled, they all measured.356 - the small “5” at the end was not on.
So, yes - when I measured the diameter of the bullet that had been inside the brass case, it was smaller, but only in the range of .0005” smaller.
Is that enough to make a difference? When I press the “compressed” end of the bullet into the barrel, it’s still so snug a fit that I have to rap the barrel on something hard to dislodge the bullet.

Silly question, before I go all “Hulk SMASH” on these bullets to test the durability of the coating, does it matter whether I smash them nose-on, or lay them on their sides? I guess I’ll try one each way…

[Spartan1980]

Ok - I pulled 3 of the loaded bullets from the new lot. They have a BARELY measurable compressed diameter.
To elaborate: my digital calipers measure to .001, and then have a smaller “5” that comes on to indicate (I’d guess) 5/10,000 of an inch. But that 4th decimal digit “5” is either on or off, so doesn’t give much granularity.
When I measured 20 bullets in this lot that have not been loaded, they all measure .3565
When I measured the three bullets I pulled, they all measured.356 - the small “5” at the end was not on.
So, yes - when I measured the diameter of the bullet that had been inside the brass case, it was smaller, but only in the range of .0005” smaller.
Is that enough to make a difference? When I press the “compressed” end of the bullet into the barrel, it’s still so snug a fit that I have to rap the barrel on something hard to dislodge the bullet.

Silly question, before I go all “Hulk SMASH” on these bullets to test the durability of the coating, does it matter whether I smash them nose-on, or lay them on their sides? I guess I’ll try one each way…

To remove leading I always use a bronze bore brush, and you have to push all they way through the barrel. Never reverse directions while the brush is inside the bore, not even with bronze and I never use a stainless brush either. If it's bad some copper Chore Boy pad wrapped around the bronze brush will remove a lot of lead quickly. Make sure it's solid copper as they make a copper washed steel wool pad too. ETA: Don't forget the solvent. Hoppes #9 for me but use your favorite.

Smashing orientation isn't real critical, I'd just stand it up on its base and whack it a couple of times with a large hammer. You are checking adhesion here so if it comes off when the bullet deforms it is likely coming off when fired and travelling through your barrel. Also as mentioned, make sure your crimp isn't cutting through the coating. That will lead you to nothing good.

ETA2: If all else fails I'd ditch the Lee FC die and see what happens. It doesn't sound like you are squeezing them down too far. To determine if they are .0005" smaller you really need an actual micrometer. Calipers just aren't accurate enough. I think you are probably good enough to reasonably know you aren't swaging them down excessively but I've seen people have exactly your problem and ditching that die cured it. You may be "right on the line" size wise with the bore/bullet combo for your gun.

[GyroF-16]

Take the gun apart like you're going to clean it. Look at the muzzle end of the barrel. If the rifling looks silver and you can use a pin to dislodge some of the "residue" in one of the grooves, your barrel is probably leaded.

Beretta's generally like .357 size coated projectiles.
That said, .356 do seem to work. Check that your crimp, seating and powder drop have consistent. All of those can have an effect on keyholing.

Okay- I took a look at the barrel with an eye to leading…
I was surprised to find some in the recessed crown of the barrel. Generally when I clean this gun (every 700 rds or so), the carbon on the recessed crown can be rubbed off with some solvent on a patch, and sometimes a toothpick.
I admittedly did not look at the crown on the last cleaning (which was immediately after the lot of keyholing bullets), but 254 rds after that cleaning, this is what the crown looked like:

I’ve never seen leading like that on this gun before.
I cleaned the barrel with solvent, a brass bore brush, and patches, then used a dental pick to scrape the lead from the barrel crown.
Now it looks like this:

I can’t really see much evidence of leading in the bore, but, then I’ve never seen leading in a bore before.
What do you guys think?




While I can see a bit of something in the edge of some of the lands (especially in photo A), it doesn’t look like a lot to me.

Questions:
1. If 100 of the last 354 rounds fired from this gun were from a defective lot that was shedding the coating, could that result in the leading on the crown?
2. Do any of you see evidence of significant leading in the bore that would lead to keyholing?

At the moment, my working theory is that the most recent lot of Gallant bullets (the first 100 of the 354 mentioned above) are shedding their coating in the barrel, causing leading of the crown and instability in the 20% of the bullets I saw keyholing in the practice session where I took the photos posted earlier.

What do you see to support or refute that theory?
If I’m doing something wrong, I want to fix it. And I want to be pretty certain before I tell Gallant that they sent me a bad lot of bullets.