Demonstrated Concepts Cheek Weld

[Wondering Beard]

Shotgun- push-pull works. Rather than pulling (like a bow draw) I clench my elbow and shoulder back into my spine. The pressure is that of starting an arm wrestling match.

On AR/AK/CP33, with fingers-over/inverted grip I’m pulling the gun into body with lats, gripping hard and using the same push-clench pressures.

Just to be sure I understand:
There is a "push", with the offhand, on the forestock/rail but the "pull" essentially comes from the "pulling inward" of the elbow and shoulder into the body and spine/back?
With the offhand over the rail, it's still the same "push-Pull" as modified by your technique, the offhand is just in a different position?

Also, for clarity, is the advantage of the offhand over the rail simply that it takes less room in cramped quarters (the elbow is made to come inward a lot more, allowing better maneuverability in tight spaces) compared to the usual method?

Finally, as @SouthNarc asks, what's the pressure, if any, on the cheek?

[LHS]

USPSA rules require a stock.. I researched it when I wanted to run a braced pistol - not allowed. It’s in the PCC equipment rules.

At a local match you could probably get away with it.

I guarantee our BUG match director will allow it, even if it's not for official score. He just loves seeing oddball stuff for the lulz

[TCinVA]

This past weekend I was taking Tom Givens' shotgun instructor course and spent an entire day shooting my 14-in 870 without letting the butt touch my shoulder. It felt dramatically faster, and while I didn't get to test with and without on a timer (that's coming), my performance certainly did not suffer. I still like having a stock for bracing against my forearm while doing reloads or other manipulations, but shooting with only the hands on the gun and a cheek weld worked beautifully and I will be likely continuing this whenever possible.

Speed of presentation is going to depend on how you start.

In other words, if you are carrying the gun in a field sort of carry (muzzle up) and mount the gun by just driving the stock to the cheek instead of just backward to the shoulder it can get you on target slightly faster. IF you get everything else right. (Head position, body position, etc) If you get it wrong it takes an extra fraction of a second to drive the stock back and find your mount. Sometimes while mounting the gun from a muzzle up I'll shoot with the stock floated off the shoulder because with recoil mitigation I'm not worried about getting kicked. If I'm going for the quickest first shot I can make I'll shoot when the sights are there regardless of where the stock is. If I'm firing a multiple shot string I just drive the gun back into the shoulder before the next shot.

It's essentially the same as flowing from a short stocked position to a full mount of the gun.

You will likely find it is not faster coming from a true low ready position with the stock already locked against the upper body.

[RustyCrusty]

Rhett what about the actual amount of pressure into the cheek/jaw on the buffer tube? Any good analogies you could make there to connote the pressure into words?

About the pressure that I’d feel on my cheek in school as I rested my head in my hand and tried not to fall asleep. About the same ‘feeler pressure’ I’d put into head control on a wrestling partner in a clench.

[RustyCrusty]

Just to be sure I understand:
There is a "push", with the offhand, on the forestock/rail but the "pull" essentially comes from the "pulling inward" of the elbow and shoulder into the body and spine/back?
With the offhand over the rail, it's still the same "push-Pull" as modified by your technique, the offhand is just in a different position?

Also, for clarity, is the advantage of the offhand over the rail simply that it takes less room in cramped quarters (the elbow is made to come inward a lot more, allowing better maneuverability in tight spaces) compared to the usual method?

Finally, as @SouthNarc asks, what's the pressure, if any, on the cheek?

Push-pull works
Pull-push works

What I tend to do is grab the thing, crunch it as tight into the body as possible, and torque it like I’m trying to open a pickle jar.

Drawing power from lats and pecs is huge for any kind of 2 hand shooting.

Overhand allows better striking/control, muzzle dexterity, and a smaller firing platform.

[Wondering Beard]

Push-pull works
Pull-push works

What I tend to do is grab the thing, crunch it as tight into the body as possible, and torque it like I’m trying to open a pickle jar.

Drawing power from lats and pecs is huge for any kind of 2 hand shooting.

Overhand allows better striking/control, muzzle dexterity, and a smaller firing platform.

Thank you.

I'll put some practice into this.

[GearFondler]

"So how do I do this again?"

"Well, Rhett said it's like arm wrestling a pickle jar without falling to sleep."

[LHS]

Speed of presentation is going to depend on how you start.

In other words, if you are carrying the gun in a field sort of carry (muzzle up) and mount the gun by just driving the stock to the cheek instead of just backward to the shoulder it can get you on target slightly faster. IF you get everything else right. (Head position, body position, etc) If you get it wrong it takes an extra fraction of a second to drive the stock back and find your mount. Sometimes while mounting the gun from a muzzle up I'll shoot with the stock floated off the shoulder because with recoil mitigation I'm not worried about getting kicked. If I'm going for the quickest first shot I can make I'll shoot when the sights are there regardless of where the stock is. If I'm firing a multiple shot string I just drive the gun back into the shoulder before the next shot.

It's essentially the same as flowing from a short stocked position to a full mount of the gun.

You will likely find it is not faster coming from a true low ready position with the stock already locked against the upper body.

We're on the same page of music

[Rex G]

All of the enabling, in this discussion, is tempting me, while being left-eye dominant is the one big factor that is holding me back, and compelling me to think outside of the material which has been presented. The accessory that catches spent brass would be a work-around, but, as with an offset-mounted optic, which I mentioned in my previous reply post, the penalty would be added width.

Perhaps the sight, at least for compressed-hold cheek-firing, could be a high-quality laser? (Perhaps the BUIS could be in the conventional positions?) I have zero experience with lasers, on firearms, but did use them with PD-issued Tasers. (Until I retired, in 2018, I was not allowed to use lasers, on duty/defensive firearms, 24/7/365, so I would have to start learning about buying suitable lasers, from scratch.)

Of course, there is the Charlie Askins low-light, close-range sight, a white rag tied around the muzzle. (Of course, that context was for shotguns, to enable launching Blue Whistlers, to shoot ‘em spang through the brisket.)

[Clusterfrack]

This is super helpful, and makes sense for the cheek-weapon. How I run a carbine and handgun is substantially different from what you describe below. With handguns, many top shooters are focusing on relaxing the shoulders, and do not apply strong force with anything other than the support hand and both wrists. I have found this to be tremendously helpful for fast precise transitions, predictable tracking of the sights, and a lot more. Removing tension above the elbows is something I'm continuing to work on.

So, it looks like some of us will need to switch between significantly different techniques for cheek-weapon, long gun, and especially handgun.

Push-pull works
Pull-push works

What I tend to do is grab the thing, crunch it as tight into the body as possible, and torque it like I’m trying to open a pickle jar.

Drawing power from lats and pecs is huge for any kind of 2 hand shooting.

Overhand allows better striking/control, muzzle dexterity, and a smaller firing platform.