Reduced power 10mm loads for self defense

[Trooper224]

Yes indeed, and my only intention in listing power factors is to give a sense of how the recoil compares. While I totally agree that power factor and terminal ballistics are entirely separate things, I also find it to be a good way to compare recoil.

I've shot USPSA and Steel Challenge with 200+ PF loads. It's fun to do occasionally, but the score does suffer.

I once shot a bullseye course with an S&W Model 29 and full power Magnum loads. I was two points shy of a perfect score, but it's not something I recommend.

[the Schwartz]

As usual Doc, your advice is ''spot on''!

This—

V-Crowns are generally offer poor intermediate barrier performance and would not be a good choice for defensive or duty use.

—has been my experience with Sig's V-Crown regardless of the caliber being employed.

Elsewhere on this website I tested the Sig V-Crown:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....hlight=V-Crown

I have posted the following water test results (conducted July 2019) below for convenience's sake.


Sig Sauer Elite .45ACP 230-grain V-Crown JHP (no barrier)

Test Firearm: HK USP45; 4.41-inch barrel
Barrier: None
Test Medium: H₂O @ 75°F
Conditions: 80°F @ 44% relative humidity
Range: 10 feet

Average Diameter: 0.6055 inch
Retained Mass: 229.9 grains
Impact Velocity: 807.6 feet per second
Recovered Length: 0.481'' (12.22 mm)

Frontal detail:


Side detail:


Rear detail:


Predictive Analysis:

Q-model
DoP: 16.605 inches
Wound Mass: 2.354 ounces
Wound Volume: 3.917 cubic inches

mTHOR
DoP: 16.1603 inches
Wound Mass: 2.291 ounces
Wound Volume: 3.812 cubic inches

The minimum diameters, measured across the three smallest innermost 'notches', for the test round were 0.495'', 0.502'' and 0.502''. The maximum diameters, measured across the outermost tips of the petals were 0.710'', 0.712'' and 0.712''. Although I was not pleased to see the beginnings of jacket separation with this JHP design, expansion was remarkably uniform in every respect with an average recovered diameter of 0.6055'' and a retained mass of 229.9 grains (99.96% retention). Predicted terminal penetration of the Sig Sauer .45 ACP 230-grain V-Crown fell right in the middle of the 14'' - 18'' range that I like to see in premium JHP designs and permanent wound mass is acceptable at about 2⅓ ounces. However, given the moderate expansion (1.341x caliber) of this particular design and its failure to expand against the IWBA 4LD mechanical failure test, I am not impressed with it enough to recommend the V-Crown JHP for use in the self-defense role.


Sig Sauer Elite .45ACP 230-grain V-Crown JHP vs. four layers of 16-ounce denim, IWBA standard

Test Firearm: HK USP45; 4.41-inch barrel
Barrier: 4 layers of 16-ounce cotton denim (IWBA protocol)
Test Medium: H₂O @ 75°F
Conditions: 80°F @ 44% relative humidity
Range: 10 feet

Average Diameter: 0.4515 inch
Retained Mass: 230 grains
Impact Velocity: 823.7 feet per second

No images.
All three test rounds passed through the 4 layers of 16-ounce denim and through 60 inches of water test medium without expanding.
All test rounds were found laying on the berm back-stop, undeformed except for very minor damage on the expansion cavity lip.

Predictive Analysis:

Q-model
DoP: 25.057 inches
Wound Mass: 1.660 ounces
Wound Volume: 2.761 cubic inches

mTHOR
DoP: 25.798 inches
Wound Mass: 1709 ounces
Wound Volume: 2.843 cubic inches

The .45 ACP 230-grain V-Crown JHP failed on all three attempts to expand when fired through four layers of 16-ounce/yard² denim. Testing was discontinued at this point because the .45 ACP 230-grain V-Crown JHP failed to perform adequately against the IWBA failure protocol of four layers of 16-ounce denim. It appears that my experience was not unique in this regard. Others who have tested the Sig Sauer V-Crown JHP across a range of calibers, weights, and velocities have had similar experiences with the design.


DoP = maximum equivalent depth of penetration in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin (or soft tissue)
Wound Mass = total mass of tissue damaged/destroyed within the entire wound channel
Wound Volume = total volume of the permanent cavity

[Clusterfrack]

The place velocity does interest me is with a service pistol penetrator load that you hope to poke a hole in a bear’s skull with. Subjectively, 1,100-1,300 fps seems to be enough velocity to penetrate a skull using a proper bullet, while not so much velocity that you get into reliability issues.

My only use for a 10mm is for grizzly defense. But instead of having to travel with two guns, I also carry my G20 in a general defensive role, in and around town. I carry two mags: 1) Hardcast penetrators over an extra power magazine spring, and 2) HST 200gr in a standard mag. I have HST in the chamber, making it easy to swap mags at the trailhead. And, HST would hopefully be effective if there was a large animal attack when that mag was in the gun.

[Trooper224]

So did the 10mm start out at those specs and then was made more powerful over the years? Pardon me if I missed it but I just wonder why the 10mm they used was so weak.

The 10mm followed the same misbegotten path as the .41 Magnum. It was intended to be the ultimate "manstopper" for law enforcement, as was the .41. The 10mm was heavily influenced by Jeff Cooper, who envisioned a forty caliber round exactly like what the .40 S&W later became. Unfortunately, like the .41, the ammunition introduced was significantly more powerful than really needed. If the term "Magnum" hadn't become politically incorrect, it probably would have been labeled as the .40 Automag. The original Norma produced ammo featured two loads: a 170 grain bullet at 1400fps and a 200 grainer at 1200 fps. Those were snappy out of the Bren Ten (when it worked) or the S&W 1006, but were downright abusive to the gun and the shooter when fired out of the Colt Delta Elite. Most pistol powders didn't have any flash retardants added to them back then, so low light shooting was a real light show, much like a Magnum revolver round of the same era.

The FBI took a lot of heat for their agents not being able to handle the Ten, but to be objective, no one else could have either, at least as a defensive weapon in a combat context.

Other than defense against dangerous game, there's really no reason for a full power 10mm, other than if you just think it's cool. (which it is) Today, a +P 9mm load will deliver equal performance to an old .357 Magnum load of equivalent bullet weight, but it will do it without the excessive muzzle blast and recoil. Today the primary metrics for performance are controlled projectile expansion and penetration, neither of which are dependent upon extreme muzzle velocity. Todays bullets are far more advanced than those available when the 10mm was developed. Touching of the wrath of God when you pull the trigger is no longer necessary.

[corneileous]

Well, hopefully whenever ammo prices ever start to come down- if they ever do, I might just get either the HST or SPG for the ole Sig. Really don’t need to, I have enough loaded house guns in 9mm, 40, and 45.


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[corneileous]

The 10mm followed the same misbegotten path as the .41 Magnum. It was intended to be the ultimate "manstopper" for law enforcement, as was the .41. The 10mm was heavily influenced by Jeff Cooper, who envisioned a forty caliber round exactly like what the .40 S&W later became. Unfortunately, like the .41, the ammunition introduced was significantly more powerful than really needed. If the term "Magnum" hadn't become politically incorrect, it probably would have been labeled as the .40 Automag. The original Norma produced ammo featured two loads: a 170 grain bullet at 1400fps and a 200 grainer at 1200 fps. Those were snappy out of the Bren Ten (when it worked) or the S&W 1006, but were downright abusive to the gun and the shooter when fired out of the Colt Delta Elite. Most pistol powders didn't have any flash retardants added to them back then, so low light shooting was a real light show, much like a Magnum revolver round of the same era.

The FBI took a lot of heat for their agents not being able to handle the Ten, but to be objective, no one else could have either, at least as a defensive weapon in a combat context.

Other than defense against dangerous game, there's really no reason for a full power 10mm, other than if you just think it's cool. (which it is) Today, a +P 9mm load will deliver equal performance to an old .357 Magnum load of equivalent bullet weight, but it will do it without the excessive muzzle blast and recoil. Today the primary metrics for performance are controlled projectile expansion and penetration, neither of which are dependent upon extreme muzzle velocity. Todays bullets are far more advanced than those available when the 10mm was developed. Touching of the wrath of God when you pull the trigger is no longer necessary.

Other than it’s supposed reliability issues and of course cost, I probably would’ve been better off with a Desert Eagle 44 for a woods gun but I don’t regret the Sig 10mm and the Underwood 220 grain lead hard casts.

Sure, a revolver in 44 thats a lot easier to come by with more brand variants to choose from has its merits but I’m just not a revolver guy.


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[Trooper224]

Other than it’s supposed reliability issues and of course cost, I probably would’ve been better off with a Desert Eagle 44 for a woods gun but I don’t regret the Sig 10mm and the Underwood 220 grain lead hard casts.

Sure, a revolver in 44 thats a lot easier to come by with more brand variants to choose from has its merits but I’m just not a revolver guy.


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Considering your Sig will probably function better than ANY Desert Eagle I've ever seen, I'd say you made a better choice. I think your choice of gun and load is fine for the woods.

[corneileous]

Considering your Sig will probably function better than ANY Desert Eagle I've ever seen, I'd say you made a better choice. I think your choice of gun and load is fine for the woods.

Yeah, and a whole lot lighter too…lol. Mine weighs 39.5 ounces with an empty magazine compared to the 72 ounces the Deagle weighs.

Not sure about how it would do against really big bear but there have been some sightings of brown bear on the eastern part of the state but other than that, mountain lion and hogs are about all that we have to worry about in these parts.


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[HCM]

Yeah, and a whole lot lighter too…lol. Mine weighs 39.5 ounces with an empty magazine compared to the 72 ounces the Deagle weighs.

Not sure about how it would do against really big bear but there have been some sightings of brown bear on the eastern part of the state but other than that, mountain lion and hogs are about all that we have to worry about in these parts.


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[HCM]

Yeah, and a whole lot lighter too…lol. Mine weighs 39.5 ounces with an empty magazine compared to the 72 ounces the Deagle weighs.

Not sure about how it would do against really big bear but there have been some sightings of brown bear on the eastern part of the state but other than that, mountain lion and hogs are about all that we have to worry about in these parts.


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Not sure why everyone is so concerned about bears….