Reduced power 10mm loads for self defense

[corneileous]

Not sure why everyone is so concerned about bears….

Attachment 77375

That’s just wrong in so many ways.


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[Tex41mag]

[GJM]

Not to shoot the messenger, but based on my experience, these loads are a great way to turn a Glock 20 into a one shot pistol.

[corneileous]

Where do these stand against the FBI tests of the Federal Premium HST and Speer Gold Dot?


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[corneileous]

Not to shoot the messenger, but based on my experience, these loads are a great way to turn a Glock 20 into a one shot pistol.

I’m assuming by the “not to shoot the messenger” part that this is bad??


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[GJM]

Where do these stand against the FBI tests of the Federal Premium HST and Speer Gold Dot?


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They don’t.

[corneileous]

They don’t.

I guess the question towards the Glock and the shooting of the messenger in my previous post has been answered.


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[Rick R]

My old agency was an early adopter of the S&W 1006 in 10mm. We started out with 180gr fmj flat points because the guns came in but sane duty ammo didn’t and the Sheriff wanted them issued. Luckily a boutique loader soon provided us with 180gr XTP loaded to about 1200fps. They toppled road injured deer over better than our old .357 Silvertip load did and the local PDs that had gone to 9mm were jealous. We then moved on to the 175gr Silvertip and life was good for those big strapping guys on the road who could shoot. We had one actual OIS that was decisive but read like a Monty Python skit.

Some smaller/older/less burly officers struggled with requalification, and apparently the FBI with a bunch of people who were attorneys or accountants with guns had similar problems because they soon spec’d a load dialed back to 180gr@950fps and that was in their eyes “adequate”. I shot the Winchester version at a firearms instructor course at FLETC in GA, zero issues from my 1006, and I have a plaque around here somewhere that says I cleaned their qualification course every time we shot it. That load did not impress the hors d’highway deer as much as the original 180gr@1,200fps loading but we carried it for a while. Eventually 10mm ammo wasn’t being developed by the ammo companies, S&W quit making the 1006 and offered to trade us .40S&W guns and life moved on.

Much like .357Mag, 10mm ammo is all over the place depending on what factory loads it, going from being .40 S&W in a longer case to fire breathing near magnum stuff from the boutique loaders. I occasionally carry my Ruger SR1911 or GP-100 both in 10mm, and usually with the SIG V Crown because it shoots well in both guns. Personally I’d prefer a 180gr Gold Dot at 1,200fps (like my practice loads using BE-86) but Speer hasn’t seen fit to offer those. I figure I survived for 30+ years not shooting anyone with ammo worse than the V Crown, now that I’m old and retired I’ll endeavor to still not shoot anyone. In any event a 1 cm hole is going to leave a mark.

[Spartan1980]

The 10mm followed the same misbegotten path as the .41 Magnum. It was intended to be the ultimate "manstopper" for law enforcement, as was the .41. The 10mm was heavily influenced by Jeff Cooper, who envisioned a forty caliber round exactly like what the .40 S&W later became. Unfortunately, like the .41, the ammunition introduced was significantly more powerful than really needed. If the term "Magnum" hadn't become politically incorrect, it probably would have been labeled as the .40 Automag. The original Norma produced ammo featured two loads: a 170 grain bullet at 1400fps and a 200 grainer at 1200 fps. Those were snappy out of the Bren Ten (when it worked) or the S&W 1006, but were downright abusive to the gun and the shooter when fired out of the Colt Delta Elite. Most pistol powders didn't have any flash retardants added to them back then, so low light shooting was a real light show, much like a Magnum revolver round of the same era.

The FBI took a lot of heat for their agents not being able to handle the Ten, but to be objective, no one else could have either, at least as a defensive weapon in a combat context.

Other than defense against dangerous game, there's really no reason for a full power 10mm, other than if you just think it's cool. (which it is) Today, a +P 9mm load will deliver equal performance to an old .357 Magnum load of equivalent bullet weight, but it will do it without the excessive muzzle blast and recoil. Today the primary metrics for performance are controlled projectile expansion and penetration, neither of which are dependent upon extreme muzzle velocity. Todays bullets are far more advanced than those available when the 10mm was developed. Touching of the wrath of God when you pull the trigger is no longer necessary.

To expound on this. Yes. Jeff Cooper had been wanting a .40 caliber, 200 grain bullet, running 1000 feet per second. And he wanted a CZ75 based gun shooting it. He had a whole lot of influence in the industry in that time. The guys at Dornhouse & Dixon ended up producing some along those lines with the gun but the round was quite different. When they found an ammo manufacturer that would make the brass and rounds it was Norma. That ammo shoved a 200 grain bullet out of their test barrel at 1260 FPS and a tick over 700lb of energy, IIRC. So basically it actually was the rerun of the .41 magnum and doomed from the start.

I was pretty surprised that the FBI adopted it and was not surprised to read that they quickly downloaded it. I often wonder if the Bren 10 would have had a different outcome if Col. Cooper had been listened to a little closer. I also wonder if the .357 Sig would have happened along in the 10mm's place if it would have had a different following too since there really was no argument (at that time) that a .357 Magnum was near the perfect LE caliber (ballistically speaking) and the Sig basically replicated it. But had any of that happened we may not have ended up getting the great bullet construction methods we have today either, so there's that I guess.

[03RN]

Not sure why everyone is so concerned about bears….

Attachment 77375

I'm embarrassed to say I have the same pipe