Irons and Red Generational User Question

[BehindBlueI's]

Agree on the RMR and RMSc on auto function, although I am more inclined to pick a manual setting and go with it. Neither Aimpoint or Eotech have offered auto on their carbine optics, and that hasn’t held back their proliferation.

I don't know the need is as relevant to rifles, though, since using a rifle is seldom a surprise event. For my context, if I have time to get the rifle I have time to turn the dot to 'good enough'. I've had to adjust a few times on a call, notably when a guy was holding himself hostage deep in a dark garage and I was out in the sun taking cover behind a tree. Handguns may not have that luxury. I'm solely using manuals on handguns right now, because I don't trust any automatic to be right, but it's not exactly the same as carbine use in my world.

[GJM]

I don't know the need is as relevant to rifles, though, since using a rifle is seldom a surprise event. For my context, if I have time to get the rifle I have time to turn the dot to 'good enough'. I've had to adjust a few times on a call, notably when a guy was holding himself hostage deep in a dark garage and I was out in the sun taking cover behind a tree. Handguns may not have that luxury. I'm solely using manuals on handguns right now, because I don't trust any automatic to be right, but it's not exactly the same as carbine use in my world.

On the Acro P1, one click down from max is my do all setting. Other than in pitch dark, it is very usable, and even there if you use white light.

[IDontDoQuests]

Were you trying to justify your love of irons because some high level shooters use them in a dedicated iron divisions?

RU MAD, BRO because I'm saying love doesn't have to follow logic or performance and you can enjoy something that is worse performing as long as everyone else is similarly handicapped?

Even though you were thinking you were being objective, you were asking a question to support your bias.

If pointing that out makes you uncomfortable, I'm not really sorry. That's my behavioral disorder and that's why I'm particularly annoying to a number of people, but very useful to others. That's how I live with (and love) myself.

No I don't disagree with you, I actually agree on the information and have zero disagreements there. It's the way you approach people that's unhinged and I was genuinely confused if this was your forum shtick or if that's who you really are lol. FYI some others here think I was being biased towards red dots, some think I was being biased towards irons. Goes to show that depending on your own biases, you can turn my OP into whatever you want it to be.

[IDontDoQuests]

I think that sentence is the heart of your confusion. I don't think anyone believes that in such a simplistic way as you put it. Even red dot advocates are going to say there is a downside in terms of cost, in terms of complexity of logistics, in terms of size, etc.

There is broad consensus that a dot increases technical performance in most contexts. Is that improvement meaningful? If you have technical skills that are already deep into diminishing returns for defensive encounters, is that extra little bump worth the downsides? When I worked uniform patrol I saw a non-zero amount of incidents were guys had a duty gun and holster packed with mud. Your BUIS are completely useless if your RDS window is obscured by mud, they aren't offset. It snows here. Irons are very weather proof. Dots may or may not be. Irons are very difficult to obscure and very quick to clear if they do get mud or something on them, dots less so. All considerations.

I'm not a competitor but as others have pointed out, equipment changes the division you compete in. Someone can like the technology of top fuel cars and nobody doubts they are the fastest accelarating race cars, but still want to run NASCAR or dirt track. They may already be entrenched in their sport, they may just like their sport more, etc.

So nobody is saying they are superior in EVERY WAY. They are saying they are superior in SOME WAYS, which may or may not be relevant to any given user in any given context.

Signed, Gen X dude who's dot curious and experimenting but still not quite all in.

I don't necessarily believe that myself, because I am convinced that durability alone goes to irons, but since I've lurked these forums for years, I know the general consensus here is that red dots are superior and if you say otherwise it devolves into silly arguments of red dots vs irons pros and cons, when I just wanted to discuss more so if some users are better served with sticking with irons. Whether they are, or aren't losing anything important performance wise.

[IDontDoQuests]

All LOUD NOISES aside, my biggest complaint with every single optic I've tried is lack of useable auto adjust. The dots I've used, if turned bright enough to be seen against a light colored background/target in full sunlight, are completely unusable in dim light - the flare washes out the ability to see the target.

The auto adjust models I've tried have either been not responsive enough to rapidly changing light conditions (e.g. moving from well lit/out doors to indoor to dim indoors), or unable to "brighten" when shooting from a dim location at a target that's brightly lit.

When someone fixes this problem, I'll give it another go. If you can put it in a package with a window the size of the SRO, with the durability of an Aimpoint, and battery life that's measured in months, not days, those would be pluses.

Which one have you tried? The Trijicon RMR has worked well for me so far. Perhaps a little washed out in very bright conditions, but works well enough in dark rooms, indoor, and night areas. The Holosun 507c's auto function has been unusable for me, as it's too low for any condition, at least for my eyes (and I have 20/15 vision)

[MickAK]

I'm pretty sure @JCN unhingededry is both a forum shtick and who he is, but he's good so whatevs.

To elaborate on the petulance comment, I put a lot of damn work into getting really good with irons and I'm annoyed that something else is better. I know exactly which dots I'm going to switch to, where I'll send the slides to be milled, how often I'll change the screws and so on but damn, it grinds my gears.

Those hours aren't wasted, cowitness is a thing, but hell, that was a lot of effort. Doubt I'm the only one.

[JCN]

I'm pretty sure @JCN unhingededry is both a forum shtick and who he is, but he's good so whatevs.

To elaborate on the petulance comment, I put a lot of damn work into getting really good with irons and I'm annoyed that something else is better. I know exactly which dots I'm going to switch to, where I'll send the slides to be milled, how often I'll change the screws and so on but damn, it grinds my gears.

Those hours aren't wasted, cowitness is a thing, but hell, that was a lot of effort. Doubt I'm the only one.

Totally agree. It’s my schtick for recreation and who I am. Solid, well thought out logic and information in posts… but the more insecure the recipient, the more visceral the negative reaction.

@MickAK this might not be what you want to hear but getting good with dots might just take your irons to another level (in a good way). It’s such good dry fire practice feedback that you can notice things that were pretty subtle with irons.

It won’t be wasted time at all. You’ll see.

[GJM]

FYI some others here think I was being biased towards red dots, some think I was being biased towards irons. Goes to show that depending on your own biases, you can turn my OP into whatever you want it to be.

In fairness, your initial post in this thread was written in such a way that a careful reader might think that you were looking more for controversy than a thoughtful discussion. There are, of course, other possible explanations for what you wrote.

[MickAK]

Totally agree. It’s my schtick for recreation and who I am. Solid, well thought out logic and information in posts… but the more insecure the recipient, the more visceral the negative reaction.

@MickAK this might not be what you want to hear but getting good with dots might just take your irons to another level (in a good way). It’s such good dry fire practice feedback that you can notice things that were pretty subtle with irons.

It won’t be wasted time at all. You’ll see.

That was the first thing I noticed with a dot. That just makes it more annoying though.

The feedback a dot gives you could have been implemented into irons training long before the tech and commercial availability made dots a pretty easy choice. Inertia is a bitch.

[JCN]

That was the first thing I noticed with a dot. That just makes it more annoying though.

The feedback a dot gives you could have been implemented into irons training long before the tech and commercial availability made dots a pretty easy choice. Inertia is a bitch.

Annoyance is just wasted negative energy that could be spent doing positive things.

Doesn’t matter what was, it just matters what is and what will be.

Inertia is like that pillar of salt thing. Just keep looking forward and moving forward.

If you’re good with irons, it won’t take much to translate that over to dots. Because solid mechanics are the fundamentals that vision adds to. That part won’t be wasted at all.