Tactical Accuracy of Polymer-framed Pistols vs. Metal Pistols

[M2CattleCo]

Whatever they called a fix wasn’t.

Anything they made in the decade or so from ‘09 until they put the breechface cut in the Gen5 were suspect.

[HCM]

Let's talk about old school, metal frame pistols. There was always somebody who would show up at a training day and start off with malfunctions because their pistol was bone dry. If they had been in an OIS instead of training, they'd have been doing non-stop malfunction drills.

That is true but it’s an operator error rather than an inherent trait. An IME with SIG 229’s the guns would usually get through a mag or so dry before choking as the gun warmed up.

[KevH]

I stand by my statement that the "limp wrist" thing is a shoddy deflection created by Glock to transfer blame to the consumer for poor design execution.

Their guns, when setup properly and maintained, should function flawlessly irrespective of grip stregnth.

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks @KevH. Will check.

[HCM]

Thanks for saying it better than I could. I also was confused when people started talking accuracy and then reliability. I tried to steer it back on course with my SLG comment.. there is a reason 1911s can be tuned to turn in ridiculous groups while glocks can maybe get close with custom barrels but never there..

As I recall SLG took issue with my defense of Gen2 Glocks vs P228s.

Custom barrels in Gen 1-3 Glocks were a real thing but Glock has made it a moot issue in Gen 4/5.

There are two potential issues: mechanical accuracy and how much of that mechanical accuracy a shooter can actually make use of, aka “shoot ability.”

The Gen2s were no where as mechanically accurate but my example was very easy shoot to it’s potential.

Say a Gen2 Glock is a 4” gun at 25 yards if I can shoot 4” at 25 I’m shooting to 100% of it’s potential. That would be a fun with ok accuracy but excellent “shoot ability.”

And in general I agree that metal frame or heavier guns like polymer guns with WML are easier to shoot it’s a function of the ratio of weight of the gun to the weight of the trigger pull.

[HCM]

My older daughter is tiny (<100 lbs), with child-size hands. She provided an interesting (if limited) test of reliability:

Glock 19 Gen4: FTF malfunctions, even with as good a two-handed grip as she is able to have. Brass to the face as well.

Glock 17 Gen4: Good function 2 hands, FTFs with SHO. Brass to the face.

Glock 43: No malfunctions, even SHO (this was a bit of a surprise to me). She now owns a Glock 43.

CZ P-07: No malfunctions, even SHO. See below for discussion about slide weight.

I would be curious to know if adding weight in the form of a WML or a weighted grip plug would increase your daughters reliability with the G19/19.

I think mass in the frame of at least the ratio of slide mass to frame mass is part of the equation.

Recently I picked a P320 with a red dot and PMM comp. in a standard polymer grip shell it would only function reliably with hotter ammo such as +P or nato ish. Prior owner, an employee of my LGS claimed it ran 100% with everything.

I tried it in an AXG (metal) grip shell and it started running with all ammo.

Subsequently spoke to the original owner and found out it ran with all ammo when he had it because he was running it in a Legion tungsten weighted grip shell and had never tried it in the standard polymer grip shell.

[HCM]

The issue of a slide locking back on a partially loaded magazine is 100% shooter induced, and has been mentioned by HCM and KevH is largely due to stress induced weirdness in the grip. Most cops do not practice for a very fast presentation from the holster, and when they try to do it for real, it gets ugly fast.

Our Daytime Pistol Qualification for Academy recruits involves a lot of movement between cover positions, and encourages fast and efficient manipulation for the pistol due to overall time constraints. Same with the Lowlight Qual. We see the recruits slides lock back on partially loaded magazines fairly regularly, and actually warn them about this phenomenon and not to just dump the magazine without checking during the test (they wouldn't have enough ammo to finish the course).

Recently during the Officer Safety/Field Tactics week for an Academy class, their were several young instructors for this course (not Range Staff) who were screaming at recruits when they did a 'tap, rack, ready' after firing five simunitions rounds during a scenario, and going empty (recruits weren't told they were given only five Sims rounds in the 12 round magazine). The instructor was screaming at them that a Sig P226 pistol will NEVER malfunction like that, and it will ALWAYS mean the gun is empty. I had to clear that up with the 'instructors', who were resistant to the info.....until I asked the recruits how many of them had experienced the same malfunction during training. A quarter of them raised their hands.

Spot on here.

I’ve never had a mid mag lock back with a SIG P22X series gun but I have had them (and seen others have them) with P320s and with G17s with extended slide releases.

I’ve modified my grip, gone to the large grip shell and added two small squares of skate tape high on the sides of the grip to keep my grip from creeping up. These measures have eliminated the issue with standard 17 round mags but it still pops up with the 21 round mags. Usually early in the mag so I’m curious if the weight of the ammo stack in the mag is a factor.

[KevH]

As I recall SLG took issue with my defense of Gen2 Glocks vs P228s.

Custom barrels in Gen 1-3 Glocks were a real thing but Glock has made it a moot issue in Gen 4/5.

There are two potential issues: mechanical accuracy and how much of that mechanical accuracy a shooter can actually make use of, aka “shoot ability.”

The Gen2s were no where as mechanically accurate but my example was very easy shoot to it’s potential.

Say a Gen2 Glock is a 4” gun at 25 yards if I can shoot 4” at 25 I’m shooting to 100% of it’s potential. That would be a fun with ok accuracy but excellent “shoot ability.”

And in general I agree that metal frame or heavier guns like polymer guns with WML are easier to shoot it’s a function of the ratio of weight of the gun to the weight of the trigger pull.

A Gen1-3 Glock can be made just as mechanically accurate as mid-90's P228 or even more so.

One solution was a properly fitted aftermarket barrel. Bar-Sto went a little crazy with this adding lots of material to the barrel feet. Not needed. KKM does a really decent job in a near drop-in format.

Another solution, depending on the gun, was to have the factory barrel re-crowned.

My 2002ish "E" series G22 could not hold anything tighter than a 4" group at 25 yards. A wise old Glock sage suggested getting the factory barrel re-crowned. I did.
To my astonishment it was able to shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards from a rest with factory Federal American Eagle 180gr ammo. Very respectable and changed my appreciation for the gun.



In a Glock, what matters most is how the barrel fits the slide (barrel hood area and the muzzle end) and that the barrel crown isn't damaged, marred, or imperfect from the factory (they frequently used to be) and that there is enough spring tension to hold it in place. The slide to frame fit can rattle and the gun will still be very mechanically accurate. There is a reason the Gen5 barrels are designed the way they are. They should have been like that thirty years ago.

[KevH]

I would be curious to know if adding weight in the form of a WML or a weighted grip plug would increase your daughters reliability with the G19/19.

I think mass in the frame of at least the ratio of slide mass to frame mass is part of the equation.

Recently I picked a P320 with a red dot and PMM comp. in a standard polymer grip shell it would only function reliably with hotter ammo such as +P or nato ish. Prior owner, an employee of my LGS claimed it ran 100% with everything.

I tried it in an AXG (metal) grip shell and it started running with all ammo.

Subsequently spoke to the original owner and found out it ran with all ammo when he had it because he was running it in a Legion tungsten weighted grip shell and had never tried it in the standard polymer grip shell.

I'd bet a shilling if you lowered the recoil spring rate it would work just fine with the polymer grip.

[AMC]

Spot on here.

I’ve never had a mid mag lock back with a SIG P22X series gun but I have had them (and seen others have them) with P320s and with G17s with extended slide releases.

I’ve modified my grip, gone to the large grip shell and added two small squares of skate tape high on the sides of the grip to keep my grip from creeping up. These measures have eliminated the issue with standard 17 round mags but it still pops up with the 21 round mags. Usually early in the mag so I’m curious if the weight of the ammo stack in the mag is a factor.

I've also personally never experienced premature slide lock (wonder if there's a treatment for that?) with a P226, but did have it happen once or twice on my 320 X5 Legion, interestingly enough. Never the 320 Pro Fullsize however. Seen it happen with fair regularity with recruits though, especially in the first several rounds out of the holster. Further indication that it's shooter induced by grip weirdness.

I've been meaning to try a large grip module (Large...Hah! It's more a bigger medium). Might provide more purchase area for my support hand during fast shot strings. Still working in teaching that support hand to pull its weight proper!